Legendary - new single

starting the album with those annoying ooooo's on track 1, and then having Unbroken and Limitless at tracks 2 and 3 ain't gonna help the vibe imo. Releasing Luv Can as a stand alone single and forget the rest would help the vibe.

And one guy that heard the original Beautiful Drugs's version told that there were more of that kind of "ooooo's"



I would like hear it one day in its entirety...

You're all over the place with this. It can't both be "Shanks has no right to play guitar on the songs and make it his own, he's too close to the project" AND "As a producer, to stylize it, he should be pushing and fighting for his vision". Those are two directly opposite wishes. I'm trying to see where you're coming from, it's a very specific place.

:"Is it how Jon wants? Yes, at the end of the end. But does Jon want subpar produced albums? No, he just relies too much on Shanks in every other way, who delivers as his wingman, his comfort, his guitar player, his co-songwriter, but he does not deliver as a producer" is where I'm having the most trouble. 2020 was the most hands-off Shanks has been lyrically ever. How is Jon's reliance on him as a co-writer STILL such a hot button issu for an album pretty universally panned?

On songs with a co-writer, I wonder is Jon writing 90-95% of these songs himself and then Falcon and Shanks make some minor additions and receive a co-writer credit.

I think it depends...

I'm not saying he has no right to play and be a co-writer. In fact, I've repeated I think he's talented in both of these roles. But not both as guitarist/writer AND main producer on 6 last records. If I must say what I would like ideally, is that Shanks stays as guitarist and songwriter, part of the band in fact, but not a producer, in that freshness is needed.

What I'm trying to say in part above is that Jon saw Shanks' talents and then relied on them too heavily, especially since Richie is not around, but I would argue probably since the beginning with having Shanks writing with him and Richie for the first time in HAND. Shanks was also the one to introduce Jon to DAW gimmicks and easier ways to finish the songs before recording. While it may be same with any other producer, in this reality we had it was Shanks, and for what it's worth, this dependent relationship between him and Jon created new modern Jovi sound.

In my opinion, it more reflects Shanks talents (which exist for sure) than Bon jovi, the band, talents at the margin. For that margin to be extracted, you need (again, IMO) a more outside approach, a professional, even a world class name that won't be overshadowed by Jon. Again, similar to Bob Rock after producing Metallica. Because Shanks is so much inside, everybody is comfortable, including him. I don't doubt that for WAN he didn't try hard, but those songs are more his than of the band. 2020 in my views is best Shanks work ever for Jovi, as it breathes and production is more natural. Unfortunately material is as it is. On the other hand, today DIY producers are numbered in thousands across the world that could pretty much do the same sonically. E. g. you have brother of Billie Eilish producing billions of views hits in his bedroom after midnight.

In that sense, to relegate Shanks only to producer wouldn't be bad, not because he is a bad songwriter and/or arranger and/or guitarist, but because he is just solid, he is not the iconic Jovi material, and reliance on him is a taint on Jon's legacy as an artist and a businessman that knew how to cut ties and start fresh always (at least before meeting Shanks). But we know this is not possible, so I'd rather he just stays a band member and gives producing powers at least to someone else.

So yes, I think Shanks destroyed WAN. I also think he did very solid job with 2020. But for 20 years and 6 albums, my verdict is that I have no hope of a fresh Jovi sound with him in producing AND co-writing and arrangement role. Without him, I don't argue it would happen, I would just have a legitimate ounce of hope.

EDIT: Fighting for his vision means producer pushing the band to do 10 more takes this evening, so they can work 5 more hours tomorrow and day after tomorrow just jamming on next track, because he is unhappy with how structure is stale on it, and for weeks and weeks of this, against Jon's immediate wishes to go for beach or to Soul Kitchen or whatever. It's not possible when insider is producing. Shanks now is basically a less talented and charismatic acting Richie that decided to self-produce with Jon. He is not pushing them, he is part of the group that needs to be pushed by a professional now

I mean how are any of us supposed to answer that? Some songs you can tell are very Jon from the chord structure (Because We Can, Rich Man Living, Living in Sin) are all almost identical when you break them down.

Beautiful Drug sounds far poppier and more upbeat than anything on 2020 (Barring DWYC) so it makes sense Shanks was involved. I've always thought it was a song-by-song basis. Jon says he did the bulk of One Wild Night on his own and brought it to the rest, Richie helped Jon with the B-section of If I can make a Living....there's no straight answer, every song is different.

True, and there's no rule except when band is jamming, and Jovi was never really that kind of band. Rock did push them on KTF when such thing was brutally needed to stay relevant, but that's why you have today's status of that record as career saving.

I'm not saying Shanks is dictating chords, lyrics and Jon is just going with it, not a chance. I don't mind Shanks' involvement in this. Do I prefer, let's say, Desmond Child to be more prominent? Yeah, but Shanks is obviously talented songwriter, this is not an issue. But then you don't self-produce. You don't sit there with robotic plugin patterns and feed to them Jon's chords, add a bridge perhaps and 15 seconds for solo. This is lazy producing and feeding into subpar levels of modern Jovi. With WAN, it's so much his sounds and arrangements all around. With 2020, it's more letting arrangements breathe and be vulnerable, echoing Jon's voice, and sometimes it's masterfully done.

In ideal Jovi world, and what was basically a world until 1995, you would have a band ready to really get stuck in studio, and a producer hell bent on pushing them, revolving all around Jon and Richie's harmonies. Later, inspirations took a hit, but instead of HAND being that big back to form (after dissapointing 2 albums), it was just 6 new records with same producer.

I mean, what is the dispute here? Jovi never had a producer there for even close to 6 records. In their heyday they changed, and if they didn't, they wouldn't survive to be relevant. Same as they didn't survive after moderate hits of Who Says and LH album in new market. It just got stale, at least in part is reasonable to say because of 20 years of same producer

EDIT: Take example. What do you really think happens when Shanks say to Jon, it would be good on this outro to really go for it, go to your extreme levels of register and just push your vocals? I would say Jon says (as most evidenced, again, on WAN, when he could do it), he feels then he wouldn't be able to reproduce it live. And Shanks agrees (if this is not the case, then Shanks is completely to blame, but I don't think so, it's just his hesitance to push and be a producer and not a songwriting pal). Now imagine on KTF or TD albums if Jon didn't felt too good the day that high part of Something to believe in were recorded. Would you keep nasally toned stuff in there (as Shanks did on choruses of We don't run, copy paste utter criminal negligence) or there would be new days and new recording until it is right?

Shanks wrote a huge chunk of HAND, including the opening riff. He kicked off the writing of the song and brought some ideas which Jon & Richie then worked on with him.

Absolutely, about who wrote the major part of one song yes it depends, there are various factors...

My point is also that sometimes in some songs "for example Billy Falcon" could start to write one song "after Jon gave him ok", with only a guitar and then when the raw demo of the song is finished he could show it to Jon and then they could continue it/modify it.