New Studio Album - Forever

I don't think Jon has ever implied refrencing Sinatra is what helped make it a hit, just that it was a lyric that was important to him.

On the flip, I don't agree about the song's message not being why it did so well. It resonated with a lot of people BECAUSE of it's subject matter. The common person doesn't give a toss about how the drums and keys are. Its' a hooky song about living life your own way sung by a band that makes you feel good or remember your youth, it's a big recipe for success.

I think you're bang on about no one knowing what makes a hit. Welcome...might have done better by another artist or maybe it would have flopped too but the lyrics are no cheeiser than other songs that have been massive hits. The level of the band's fame relevancy plays a lot into it and a lot of people won't touch a certain song or album because it's by Bon Jovi. There's a big brick wall stopping people because of how the band is perceieved.

Until it's cool to like them again, I doubt we'll see anothet hit again regardless of the people with their heads in the clouds saying "well if it was a hard rock song with loud guitars they'll be back on top". The last single like that that did anything was....yeesh. Hey God? MAYBE Everyday? I'm talking a single with a video serviced to rock radio, not a song like We Don't Run that barely got any push.

I would agree on first instance, but I think on SWW calculation was in bringing Desmond Child for chorus powers and pulling away from melancholic themes of Fahrenheit. I don't see a power of production team (Rock and Fairbairn) as being a crucial step towards charting success (but important nonetheless). It was just Jon and Richie (and Desmond) peeking to their absolute best with some of the songs and capturing the zeitgeist with metal background, powerful hooks and girls taking their attention to the band.

Calculated? Yes, but still very intuitive and spontanous. Just the pick and mood of songs was more cheerful, I think deliberately versus previous album. I also really like that story of making highschool students listen to 20 or 30 tracks demos and choosing their favourite songs, at least I remember it like that.

But KTF I can understand why it is objectively most calculated album of band's history (I would in fact put Lost Highway as second). It doesn't mean anything bad necessarily, it is still my favourite album. But the heavy work that went in it, with Bob Rock's guidance, in my eyes is the main reason why Jovi survived to have even a chance in the 90's territory, especially in the US. If it was just Jon and Richie harmonies and chemistry, we would get probably New Jersey II, a great album for (dwindling and not so loyal at the time) fanbase, and trajectory more similar to Europe or Def Leppard.

Yup just KTF. I'll find the exact quote but DID find this really interesting one:

“The music scene had changed. In a way, Bon Jovi didn’t really matter. They were still huge, but their music wasn’t a slam-dunk. Basically, the band came to me because of the Black Album. They wanted to change up.

“It was a different process from when I worked with them and Bruce Fairbairn. The songs were different, but it wasn’t the easiest record to make. I think there are some good points on it, and there are some OK points on it.

“We had discussions about what was going on. The band knew they had to make a different kind of record; that they had to dig deep into a new way of songwriting and the way the record sounded. The production changed because it had to change.

The band was different, too. They weren’t ‘the gang’ anymore – it was Jon and the band. It was him running the show and being in charge. I was making a Jon Bon Jovi record with the band. But considering what it did, the record kind of kept them alive. I’m very proud of the album and what I did.”

Yes, in light what you say, I would correct myself to say that IML message is crucial in making it a hit song, it is absolutely necessary ingredient. Still, while I agree that people generally don't "care" about drums and keys (arrangement), it is very important part of making a song stand out.

To put it more bluntly (and obviously too far), I think if Jovi instead of New Jersey released absolute junk of an album, it would still produce few top10 singles. The band just had a zeitgeist in their hands. While I think quite opposite for KTF. If it was uninspired and underworked, it would tank heavily, and I mean really heavily. It's easy to say now that New Jersey is more successful album than KTF (in US especially), but when you take context, I think KTF is gloriously successful in keeping band alive in mainstream. Always also did heavy work.

So, for IML to be a big a hit as it was, arrangement was crucial in my eyes. Probably similar to Prayer. Without added talkbox, I'm not sure it becomes so unique cross-generational hit. Plenty of songs have necessary ingredients (optimistic/live your life/underdog mentality), but few of them all of the ingredients. Jovi did have zeitgeist (I mean, Living in Sin became top10 hit, it wouldn't even dent top100 in any other era of Jovi career, or just 2 years prior), but it also had complete package. There is no complete package for Welcome to Wherever You Are. In another context, that song becomes a hit in charts (as Livin in Sin for example), but I don't see a context where that song lives on for 2+ decades as a staple

You mean to tell me that "Jon and the band" goes all the way back to KTF and it wasn't a change brought on by hiring Shanks as producer?

These quotes just go to show that the songs and the band sound EXACTLY the way Jon wants them to sound. If you are disappointed with the direction of the band since 2000, for example, you only have one person to blame.

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What makes you say so? Bucket always stops with the only member of the bend who from 1983 has a sole contract with the record company. So that part is true always and forever. It's known fact that Jon became more prominent and complete leader in every aspect with KTF and Jovi management (firing Doc).

But at the same time, KTF is the album when Jon had the least direct control (as Bob Rock, in fact, had it - according to, again, wishes of Jon, of course). But to just say, everything is the same since KTF until now is major understatement and simplifying. Jon was prudent enough to pick Bob Rock for KTF as THE best and most respect commanding producer of the day. Then, had talent and luck with Always. Then, had record company it seems to force IML on him.

After that, Shanks really delivered with HAND single, but then luck dried out. Jon remained solid songwriter and driven workaholic, but remained with the same guy that gave him two moderate hits as producer (HAND and Who Says) and then a series of worst produced and worst selling albums of band's career. Bucket, again, stops with Jon.

But I repeat, how is it what you wrote is an argument in this direction? Jon of old, Jon that was a savy businessman and talented musician would never ever in his dreams rely so heavily on random producer of the day (as Shanks was of early 2000's pop). It is true, its Jon's fault. Jon's fault that he was satisfied to be comfortable with one producer for 20 years (20!!)

It seems to me here that there is a notion that Jon has an omnipotent influence on sound and producing quality, while in fact he only has omnipotent influence on the choice of the guy who produces. What is produced is entirely out of his domain. And I agree with everyone who blames Jon on his choices as the CEO of the band, but I completely disagree with those who lift all blame from producer and bring it back only to Jon, because that is tautological argument: any producer in the world would be guilty of it, as it would be paid by Jon, hired by Jon, acknowledged and confirmed by Jon. Thus, it is a non-argument. Jon is to be blamed by chain of command of course, but the operational blame is on Shanks dominantly.

Even with the producer of the album saying "it felt like I was making a Jon and band album" you're trying to backwards logic into sticking with your argument though. No matter what logic or articles people show you, you're up on that hill.

Our point is we have tangible proof that starting in 1992, producers have said there was much more of an effort to craft songs for commercialism. What we're talking about is things Shanks and Bob Rock and producers and engienneers point of view and facts. "But at the same time, KTF is the album when Jon had the least direct control (as Bob Rock, in fact, had it - according to, again, wishes of Jon, of course)" isn't built on anything but personal theory. Where did it come from that Jon had the least direct control on KTF?

But what you just wrote doesn't contradict in any way anything I wrote. Yes, I agree, KTF is the most calculated Jovi album in history. And because of that, it was successful. And it was successful precisely because Jon gave Bob Rock operational control and (after the fact that he hired him) behaved as Bob Rock wanted. There were talks (rumours?) of band being on breaking point and seeing therapists due to Bob Rock insistence on crafting songs and perfectionism, etc? Am I mistaken? This is what I remember, I certainly didn't make this up.

When you say commercialism, I in fact applaud that term. If Jon was driven by it, he would get rid of Shanks long time ago. Again, I must repeat, role of producer is to produce the band, not the other way around. Of course, philosophically, you always have principal-agent problem of band (Jon) hiring the guy, so the blame is always on Jon in the end. But to absolve everything from Shanks is to me irrational and shocking. Shanks became insiderman, co-writer, best friend, hell, he became a band member, which is mind-blowing for a producer to do. How can he still produce and not just be a yesman is beyond reason. Of course he does what Jon wants, but Jon needed to be smarter than that. It's not Shanks' fault that Jon picks him, but it is only Shanks fault that producing quality of albums is utter dissapointment. As is Jon's acceptance of that in fact.

So, contrary to popular belief, I strongly believe that Jon is not driven by commercialism in last 20 years as much as comfort and sense of safety with Shanks. And this is his greatest cut-off versus his old-self, and to me at least, most evident cut-off between successful and not-successful band in terms of output

How do you know the stuff about Bob Rock? As far as I can tell that is your opinion that you are passing as fact. It is not unlikely that Jon gave Rock "operational control" but I cannot find anything where either party discusses the specifics of the working relationship. In fact, all the details Rock has given lean into Jon being in control. I have always found KTF to be the most Jon album from the songwriting to the execution, but that is just an opinion. I said previously, this is one of the least documented albums in terms of how it was made.

Regarding the last 20 years, most of the albums have been driven by commercialization. HAND was conceited in its clear goal to mimic what was on rock radio at that time. Lost Highway is obviously a commercial album designed to target a specific audience that was at the time still buying CDs as the music world changed. WAN is a terrible mix of Jon chasing popular pop rock sounds of the time and his own preferences.

And there has been no cut-off. Every Bon Jovi album ever made has been comfortable, none have pushed boundaries or stretched Jon's vision. He stays in his box always, with perhaps the exception of These Days. Only circumstances may have caused discomfort, such as potentially losing the record deal prior to SWW or feeling the need to build on the success heading into NJ. The sound, the songwriting, the goal of the band has always been one of comfort. This is Bon Jovi we are talking about.

The difference is Jon had better understanding of how to put the Bon Jovi sound on top of what was happening in music at the time. Not quite copying fads, but moving with the times to fit the Bon Jovi sound to current trends. Since 2000, he has incrementally on each album lost that ability. Which is why every post 2000 album sounds like it desperately wants to be all over radio, but lacks the proper songwriting, sound, or understanding of how to do it.

I was now trying to find the source, but unable so far. I didn't make this up, I'm not trying on purpose to get my opinion as a fact. I remember vaguely that I learned from here (like decade ago at least) that the rumour was that Jon (and the band) hated working with Bob Rock with KTF cause he literally drained all out of them. So while Jon is proud of the record, he never worked again with Bob Rock. And this is not my speculation, if you believe, I read that here (I think) and it left long term impression.

Couple that with known way of Rock doing albums, also that he was at the top of authority then (after Black Album success), also take in consideration that more than 30 songs were being recorded in 7 months of largely continuous work away from home (Vancouver) and Rock even admitting it was a hard and challenging record to make.

I agree that it is mostly Jon's record from writing point of view, but writing and producing are completely different perspectives. Jon did not produce that record, he hired a guy that produced it brilliantly, and he would never hire him again. I was always of the assumption that it was common knowledge that relationships got strained, but now I see it's not common knowledge, I apologize if I presented it as "my opinion -> fact", its' not on purpose.

I also stand my reasoning that KTF is THE most calculated album in Jovi history, also very very commercial driven, but also very quality driven. It was just all that was on the table was put inside. All the talent, passion, knowledge, commercial intuition, and it was all very much needed to survive. In my eyes, without success of KTF, there is no road for Always to even be played on radio, as Jovi would by 1994 quickly be relegated to Motley Crue levels of no-go. (This applies specifically to the US, internationally I think was still considerable space for non-grunge rock bands to thrive)