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-   -   No Richie on current leg of the tour (https://drycounty.com/jovitalk/showthread.php?t=55338)

steel_horse75 03-21-2014 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semigoodlookin (Post 1174270)
They have all said Jon just had that something, "star quality" even Richie has more than once.

That said we can debate all night who would have gotten where with who or without. Regardless of that argument, the comment made by Catz is the worst I have seen during my admittedly short time on this board. So now Jon has rode coat tails to get to where he is, and is not someone other musicians want to play with. Utter ****ing nonsense of the highest order.

First, as this is clearly turning into a Jon vs Richie thing. Richie is trumpeting that x person will do something with him, but the only person who is interested is Orianthi. Richie is riding coat tails right now by name dropping at any given opportunity. That said, the comment is rubbish beyond the childish Jon v Richie thing that is going on.

I canīt believe that suddenly it has become that Richie carried the band all these years, he wrote all the good songs, and he is the one respected in the industry. I think it is naive to think Jon couldnīt show up on stage with Alice Cooper, Stevie Wonder, or Sammy ****ing Hagar if thatīs what he chose to do. In fact Jon could probably get most classic artists to record with him next week because rightly or wrongly his name carries more weight in the industry than Richieīs.

As stupid comments seem to be in vogue. How about this, Richie and Jon both announce a show on the same night in the same city. Who would get the bigger venue, who would get the most people, and all that crap? Itīs obviously Jon, the reason for that is because Bon Jovi on something means more than Sambora. I am a huge backer of the thought that Bon Jovi is all of them, and they are better together than apart, but make no mistake that most people show up to see Jon.

People in the industry respect Richie we are told, but why do you think they donīt respect Jon? He has done more lag work over the years than Richie by a mile, and has displayed as much or more talent. However, it seems as the face you get the plaudits and the brunt of peopleīs ire.

Richie is playing pubs, I shit you not there are local bands who play to more people than him, but somehow he has become a musical demi-god. Richieīs best work is all in the past, and 90% of it was with Bon Jovi. The same is true of Jon, but he is not bullshitting the masses by acting like he is a huge individual star (which ironically he actually is).

Donīt make the mistake of thinking this is an impassioned and biased defense of JBJ, it isnīt. In fact I could write an essay far longer than this on what Jonīs problems are, but to turn a guy who built a business and rolling juggernaut to someone who just got lucky is mental stuff. It is like saying Steve Jobs didnīt build and later transform Apple because he was just a hanger on who got lucky.

Not respected by critics or his peers? Letīs tackle the critics first, because youīll have to show me all the glowing 5 star reviews for Richieīs work, and doesnīt it rather contradict the point that Richie was the talent behind Bon Jovi? If he was, isnīt it really him the critics are not respecting? Jon was named 13th(?) in Classic Rockīs Greatest Frontmen of Rock.

Considering he is not respected by his peers, he has done a good job showing up on stage with the likes of Ray Davies, Bob Geldof, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, and more. It is no different to Richie showing up on stage with Stevie Wonder, except the other guys probably know who Jon Bon Jovi is.

best post ever.

DevilsSon 03-21-2014 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semigoodlookin (Post 1174270)
They have all said Jon just had that something, "star quality" even Richie has more than once.

That said we can debate all night who would have gotten where with who or without. Regardless of that argument, the comment made by Catz is the worst I have seen during my admittedly short time on this board. So now Jon has rode coat tails to get to where he is, and is not someone other musicians want to play with. Utter ****ing nonsense of the highest order.

First, as this is clearly turning into a Jon vs Richie thing. Richie is trumpeting that x person will do something with him, but the only person who is interested is Orianthi. Richie is riding coat tails right now by name dropping at any given opportunity. That said, the comment is rubbish beyond the childish Jon v Richie thing that is going on.

I canīt believe that suddenly it has become that Richie carried the band all these years, he wrote all the good songs, and he is the one respected in the industry. I think it is naive to think Jon couldnīt show up on stage with Alice Cooper, Stevie Wonder, or Sammy ****ing Hagar if thatīs what he chose to do. In fact Jon could probably get most classic artists to record with him next week because rightly or wrongly his name carries more weight in the industry than Richieīs.

As stupid comments seem to be in vogue. How about this, Richie and Jon both announce a show on the same night in the same city. Who would get the bigger venue, who would get the most people, and all that crap? Itīs obviously Jon, the reason for that is because Bon Jovi on something means more than Sambora. I am a huge backer of the thought that Bon Jovi is all of them, and they are better together than apart, but make no mistake that most people show up to see Jon.

People in the industry respect Richie we are told, but why do you think they donīt respect Jon? He has done more lag work over the years than Richie by a mile, and has displayed as much or more talent. However, it seems as the face you get the plaudits and the brunt of peopleīs ire.

Richie is playing pubs, I shit you not there are local bands who play to more people than him, but somehow he has become a musical demi-god. Richieīs best work is all in the past, and 90% of it was with Bon Jovi. The same is true of Jon, but he is not bullshitting the masses by acting like he is a huge individual star (which ironically he actually is).

Donīt make the mistake of thinking this is an impassioned and biased defense of JBJ, it isnīt. In fact I could write an essay far longer than this on what Jonīs problems are, but to turn a guy who built a business and rolling juggernaut to someone who just got lucky is mental stuff. It is like saying Steve Jobs didnīt build and later transform Apple because he was just a hanger on who got lucky.

Not respected by critics or his peers? Letīs tackle the critics first, because youīll have to show me all the glowing 5 star reviews for Richieīs work, and doesnīt it rather contradict the point that Richie was the talent behind Bon Jovi? If he was, isnīt it really him the critics are not respecting? Jon was named 13th(?) in Classic Rockīs Greatest Frontmen of Rock.

Considering he is not respected by his peers, he has done a good job showing up on stage with the likes of Ray Davies, Bob Geldof, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, and more. It is no different to Richie showing up on stage with Stevie Wonder, except the other guys probably know who Jon Bon Jovi is.

That post is all over the place and I am not quite sure what you are trying to say with it. You start by slaughtering the view that, musically speaking, Richie has carried Bon Jovi over the years (which in my opinion is a justifiable comment to make and can't be ridiculed as you do) yet back it up with all kind of points around popularity, venue size, and industry recognition. The two have nothing to do with each other. And I will not go into bubble gum pop territory to make my point - but how many people would have gone to, say, a Paul Anka gig and how many people would have gone to see Frank Sinatra?

Note, I am not even insinuating anything here...just don't like that kind of rhetoric.

JackieBlue 03-21-2014 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilsSon (Post 1174391)
That post is all over the place and I am not quite sure what you are trying to say with it. You start by slaughtering the view that, musically speaking, Richie has carried Bon Jovi over the years (which in my opinion is a justifiable comment to make and can't be ridiculed as you do) yet back it up with all kind of points around popularity, venue size, and industry recognition. The two have nothing to do with each other. And I will not go into bubble gum pop territory to make my point - but how many people would have gone to, say, a Paul Anka gig and how many people would have gone to see Frank Sinatra?


Note, I am not even insinuating anything here...just don't like that kind of rhetoric.


Gotta ask: Did you deliberately juxtapose Paul Anka and Frank Sinatra or are you just instinctively that brilliant? :D

JackieBlue 03-21-2014 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semigoodlookin (Post 1174367)
Taken out of context? Impossible, because whether it was a tit for tat rebuttal or not it was utter crap. If Catz does not agree with what Becky said then there are ways to show Richieīs contribution to the band. Either way, people saying the same about Richie are full of it too.

I am not a Jon or Richie guy, both stink at the moment in my opinion whether solo or in the band. I also donīt particularly care if the band reforms or not, but I think most sensible people know Richie and Jonīs respective qualities over the years. And the band split into four groups, how childish it that? I donīt offer adulation to people I will never meet or know, just respect, and in that regard Jon and Richie equally commanded my respect, Tico and Dave didnīt simply because they were not as ingrained in the whole process. As people, I couldnīt care less how they are, and weīll never know, and truthfully I find it is female fans who for the most part engage in that who is your favorite member rubbish.

That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. I stand by mine. :)

JackieBlue 03-21-2014 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bounce7800 (Post 1174373)
This is where I have had the problem this past year. Naively, probably, being but a simple man, I was a fan of the band as a whole and supported all its members also in their solo projects because I liked them too.

The whole Jon fans/Richie fans things actively being against other members of the same band has made me shake my hand on numerous occasions. They have barely rising above 1D fans and teenage crushes with their silly defending and sniping and it has made me embarrassed to be a Bon Jovi fan.
There's quite a fair bit of it on here, you can spot them a mile off, but thankfully a lot of us are objective on the whole. Social media is just pathetic though, Twitter messages & FB groups are just talking the biggest load of shit I have ever seen. A lot of these so-called fans basically need to grow up.

Hey, I resemble that remark! ;)

semigoodlookin 03-21-2014 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilsSon (Post 1174391)
That post is all over the place and I am not quite sure what you are trying to say with it. You start by slaughtering the view that, musically speaking, Richie has carried Bon Jovi over the years (which in my opinion is a justifiable comment to make and can't be ridiculed as you do) yet back it up with all kind of points around popularity, venue size, and industry recognition. The two have nothing to do with each other. And I will not go into bubble gum pop territory to make my point - but how many people would have gone to, say, a Paul Anka gig and how many people would have gone to see Frank Sinatra?

Note, I am not even insinuating anything here...just don't like that kind of rhetoric.



To be fair I wrote that late last night after a day of work and a few bottles. Nevertheless I think most of what I wanted to say I said, and the points I was making you missed. Maybe thatīs my fault, maybe not. I am busy right now but if the thread has not moved on by time I can be arsed to respond I will try to explain myself a bit better. Maybe.

DevilsSon 03-21-2014 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semigoodlookin (Post 1174447)
To be fair I wrote that late last night after a day of work and a few bottles. Nevertheless I think most of what I wanted to say I said, and the points I was making you missed. Maybe thatīs my fault, maybe not. I am busy right now but if the thread has not moved on by time I can be arsed to respond I will try to explain myself a bit better. Maybe.

Thanks for maybe taking the time to think about maybe replying. Also, maybe it was just me who didn't get it so maybe don't even bother. Also, maybe, you didn't even make any point at all and maybe nobody gives damn rat's ass?? Maybe, certainly, I don't.

All I said is that I didn't like that post and told you why. Whether you elaborate on it or not, doesn't make a difference. I still won't like the attitude you expressed through some of those made up factoids like Jon Bon being ranked in the top 15 by Classic Rock. He might make the top 15 in the BWJBJ top 10 singers of all time. As about Richie Sambora - while I'd take him over Jon Bon, both of them are two rich ungrateful SOBs who are not worth anyone's time. And that's DEFINITELY the only thing that matters in this discussion. No maybes.

nickolai 03-21-2014 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilsSon (Post 1174455)
As about Richie Sambora - while I'd take him over Jon Bon, both of them are two rich ungrateful SOBs who are not worth anyone's time. And that's DEFINITELY the only thing that matters in this discussion. No maybes.

My my you are making a bit of a willy of yourself there. I dont get how you would have a fat drugged up back stabber over someone that has successfully let this band for 30 years. This comment makes no sense whatsover. Yeah back the guy who's trying to kid one person that actually thinks what he's doing has integrity - himself. And how is Jon ungrateful? Are you drunk/stoned? There is only one person in the band that is ungrateful....

Why are you coming across so aggressive? Are you jealous that you didn't write one of the best posts in a long time? I think that Richie and Jon are worth EVERYONES' time. Because thats why you have written 8,648 posts in nearly 14 years. So it has to mean something to you. Just pipe down a bit why dont you, and stick to the agenda. And stop trying to come over all billy big bollocks.

Old Fan 03-21-2014 11:55 PM

Hi guys. Long time lurker - first time poster.

Like a lot of you, I've been a fan for nearly 30 years, so I'm saddened by this stand off. And, I must say, I'm less enamoured with Richie's behaviour than I would have been 20 years ago. Here's why.

I do think that Jon's been rather stupid for the past decade or so. He's been using Bon Jovi as 'his band' to make 'his music.' Now, he has every right to do that - but it's just a stupid thing to do when you have writers like Richie and Dave beside you. Bon Jovi is a business, but Jon seems to have forgotten that their business is creativity. They will never achieve their maximum creative output, unless they deploy all their creative resources. That is, take Richie, Dave and Jon, maybe throw in Desmond Child as another long term collaborator, and write to their vision - not Jon's vision. Each one of those is a gifted songwriter in their own right. If Jon can let go of the need to write for radio, and write from the heart, (like he did with songs like Living in Sin, Silent Night, Bed of Roses, Dry County, Midnight in Chlesea etc) with these three guys by his side - if he can co-write their songs as well as having them co-write his - I firmly believe he can create an astoundingly beautiful record - as part of a fitting tribute to one of the greatest bands in rock history. These guys came from the same place, went through the same experiences, and are now in the twilight of a wonderful career that they forged together. Don't tell me that they have nothing in common, or nothing to write about. They have - and it could be truly outstanding if they throw off the shackles and just go for it. One last time - one fond farewell - no need to create hits - just the desire to leave a legacy that transcends the hit parade. Jon would be a fool not to get it done - and he's been a fool that he didn't do it sooner. He may be the boss, but the best bosses allow their subordinates to take the reins and drive the company as a team. Only the worst of bosses act like dictators. That's a fact in any business.

For all of that - he is the boss. There would be no band without him. If he wants to be an idiot, and make Richie write the way he wants Richie to write, whilst completely side-lining Dave, he has every right to do that. And Dave and Richie have every right to walk away. We all chose who we work for, and wealthy man can make that choice more easily.

But what Richie shouldn't do (and what Dave has never done) is give a commitment and then fail to live up to it. It is clear that he committed to the last tour. Now even if Jon started to move the goal posts and add more dates (which is likely given his history) Richie knew what he was getting into from day one. He gave that commitment, he should have honoured it. The rest of the band did, and I'll bet that most (if not all) of the road crew did. Us little folk live up to our word. It is an essential part of what we offer to the employers/customers who pay our bills. An ordinary Joe like one of us, would have walked away before or after, but not during the tour. Instead, Richie the rock-star threw his toys out of the pram and left his employer swinging in the wind.

Then, to make matters worse, he went on the airwaves and started talking trash about the company. He and Jon put their names to These Days, and Richie makes some daft comment about it being 'my song.' I couldn't care less about the truth of that - it's just not something that a dignified and dependable worker would do. Would any of us publicly take credit for something that we created for another employer? Of course we wouldn't. It'd be daft, stupid, and devoid of common sense. Once you've been paid for a job, you put your money in your pocket and move on. Only a child feels the need to 'claim credit.'

Richie should go to Jon and acknowledge that his behaviour is not that which an employer is entitled to expect from an employee. He should do the right thing, and apologise. Then, he may wish to make it clear that he's not coming back unless he gets to share in the creative vision for the bend, and not just write to Jon's agenda. If Jon wants to be a fool and flush Bon Jovi down the toilet by continuing to ignore his greatest assets, that's his problem. Richie can shake his hand, tell him that it was nice working with him, and move on with honour, whilst maintaining cordial relations with a long-time friend.

Here's hoping they get it together. They always struck me as having more class and work ethic than bands like G 'n' R. GnR had so much talent, but threw it all away, because they were almost all spoiled and lazy. Lets hope Bon Jovi give it one more belting blast of true teamwork, on an outsanding collaborative album.

semigoodlookin 03-22-2014 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Fan (Post 1174472)
Hi guys. Long time lurker - first time poster.

Like a lot of you, I've been a fan for nearly 30 years, so I'm saddened by this stand off. And, I must say, I'm less enamoured with Richie's behaviour than I would have been 20 years ago. Here's why.

I do think that Jon's been rather stupid for the past decade or so. He's been using Bon Jovi as 'his band' to make 'his music.' Now, he has every right to do that - but it's just a stupid thing to do when you have writers like Richie and Dave beside you. Bon Jovi is a business, but Jon seems to have forgotten that their business is creativity. They will never achieve their maximum creative output, unless they deploy all their creative resources. That is, take Richie, Dave and Jon, maybe throw in Desmond Child as another long term collaborator, and write to their vision - not Jon's vision. Each one of those is a gifted songwriter in their own right. If Jon can let go of the need to write for radio, and write from the heart, (like he did with songs like Living in Sin, Silent Night, Bed of Roses, Dry County, Midnight in Chlesea etc) with these three guys by his side - if he can co-write their songs as well as having them co-write his - I firmly believe he can create an astoundingly beautiful record - as part of a fitting tribute to one of the greatest bands in rock history. These guys came from the same place, went through the same experiences, and are now in the twilight of a wonderful career that they forged together. Don't tell me that they have nothing in common, or nothing to write about. They have - and it could be truly outstanding if they throw off the shackles and just go for it. One last time - one fond farewell - no need to create hits - just the desire to leave a legacy that transcends the hit parade. Jon would be a fool not to get it done - and he's been a fool that he didn't do it sooner. He may be the boss, but the best bosses allow their subordinates to take the reins and drive the company as a team. Only the worst of bosses act like dictators. That's a fact in any business.

For all of that - he is the boss. There would be no band without him. If he wants to be an idiot, and make Richie write the way he wants Richie to write, whilst completely side-lining Dave, he has every right to do that. And Dave and Richie have every right to walk away. We all chose who we work for, and wealthy man can make that choice more easily.

But what Richie shouldn't do (and what Dave has never done) is give a commitment and then fail to live up to it. It is clear that he committed to the last tour. Now even if Jon started to move the goal posts and add more dates (which is likely given his history) Richie knew what he was getting into from day one. He gave that commitment, he should have honoured it. The rest of the band did, and I'll bet that most (if not all) of the road crew did. Us little folk live up to our word. It is an essential part of what we offer to the employers/customers who pay our bills. An ordinary Joe like one of us, would have walked away before or after, but not during the tour. Instead, Richie the rock-star threw his toys out of the pram and left his employer swinging in the wind.

Then, to make matters worse, he went on the airwaves and started talking trash about the company. He and Jon put their names to These Days, and Richie makes some daft comment about it being 'my song.' I couldn't care less about the truth of that - it's just not something that a dignified and dependable worker would do. Would any of us publicly take credit for something that we created for another employer? Of course we wouldn't. It'd be daft, stupid, and devoid of common sense. Once you've been paid for a job, you put your money in your pocket and move on. Only a child feels the need to 'claim credit.'

Richie should go to Jon and acknowledge that his behaviour is not that which an employer is entitled to expect from an employee. He should do the right thing, and apologise. Then, he may wish to make it clear that he's not coming back unless he gets to share in the creative vision for the bend, and not just write to Jon's agenda. If Jon wants to be a fool and flush Bon Jovi down the toilet by continuing to ignore his greatest assets, that's his problem. Richie can shake his hand, tell him that it was nice working with him, and move on with honour, whilst maintaining cordial relations with a long-time friend.

Here's hoping they get it together. They always struck me as having more class and work ethic than bands like G 'n' R. GnR had so much talent, but threw it all away, because they were almost all spoiled and lazy. Lets hope Bon Jovi give it one more belting blast of true teamwork, on an outsanding collaborative album.

You donīt happen to work in a job center do you?

While you are fundamentally right, we canīt apply real world employment practices to the life of a massive rock band, the same rules just donīt apply. Of course most people are pissed at Richie for some of the things you detailed above, so perhaps it is something that matters. I wasnīt going on the tour anyway so am not pissed at him for that, I am pissed that he is a shadow of his former self.


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