The whole "pro" and "anti" system is so idiotic.

Yea. Why can't I just be annoyed at how BOTH sides are acting?

@TheRealSambora ---- 9 mins ago

"For those of you who need my artistic vision and soul.. Aftermath is a pretty accurate depiction of who I am..best work I'm my life.."

Like it was said on page 40 or something, he needs to stop tweeting.

"who need my artistic vision and soul"

That doesn't sound conceited at all.

It doesn't sound like something anyone would say about themselves, but who knows in this mess.

If it was him...raises questions about the whole 'can't promote solo work during tour' theory.

Seems like he's referring to the Tweets from fans who tell him that he's the "soul of Bon Jovi" and that sort of thing or that Bon Jovi isn't the same band without him...

Great. Just great. I kind of assumed his tweet was a little dig at Bon Jovi's music or something, but now it's black on white. What the ****?!? I'm really, REALLY starting to hate this shit, I want my band back.

Whatever it is, it seriously annoys the shit out of me.

I was going to say as a joke maybe that was a subliminal message to Jon the devil who's trying to suck out Richie's vision and soul and leave him just a shell of himself after 30 years. In a porkpie hat. ;) Seriously, Richie may not tweet on a regular basis but when he does, people are just "huh? wtf?" :confused:

I do agree with this; maybe Richie's soul and artistic vision is with his solo record (and that would make sense)--but what he isn't saying (but what I'm inferring) is that his soul and artistic vision is certainly /not/ with "WAN".

I certainly hope he isn't referring to the entirety of the Bon Jovi catalog, but who knows?

I just happened to read an interview with Lou Gramm, the original singer and co-songwriter of Foreigner. As many of you probably know, he is no longer with Foreigner, and after health problems (a brain tumor that was successfully removed)--he's had a hard road trying to reclaim his voice, but seems to be improving.

Lately, he and main band songwriter Mick Jones (who have had a contentious relationship) reunited for their induction into the Songwriters' Hall of Fame. In an interview, Lou talked about his relationship to Mick:


Question: Having a volatile relationship between two very different songwriters seems to be a common thread among many big bands. Any idea why that might be?

Answer: I’ve thought about that a lot, to tell you the truth, and I don’t have a real definitive answer. I just think that, honestly, (it comes down to) ego. One thinks that they are the more important of the two and before you know it somebody’s got the upper hand and somebody’s down on the ground.

In our early years of writing together, it was just a writing team. It didn’t feel like one was the main writer and one was just being co-writer, it just felt like our objective was to write great songs.

As years went by, Mick being the founder of the band, I think he just kind of pulled rank. A writing relationship is all based on the ability to open yourself up and let your most private ideas out. I didn’t feel open enough anymore in the way I used to. At that point, the creative bond and partnership were damaged.

Instead of being a team, we were adversaries and we no longer did our best work.


Just some food for thought...

And your Artistic Vision and Soul sold 12 albums. Don't quit your day job....OOOOPS you did.

The best serious thing I've read in all this thread.

That can construed two ways: Either that Bon Jovi music doesn't represent who he really is, or (the more likely IMO) Richie responding to people who say they miss him, he's the soul of Bon Jovi, etc. Either way, it doesn't make him look good.

Or, as one of my Jovi friends pointed out when I told her about the Tweet: "I'm not sure it's conceit to respond to the fact that people miss your art in their lives."

I don't think its conceit that makes it look bad. It really feels like a dig to me. Maybe Ive just had the wrong impression of Richie all these years, but he just seems to have changed, its weird really.

Sorry, but I just can't be against Jon in this time. Why? He doesn't gave me a reason for it.
We don't know the reasons (and probably never will) for all this shit, but if you compare Jon and Richie words and atittudes...

I'm very sad. Richie is my guitar hero, was my favorite member of the band...and it's hard for me to face that he's out. Very hard. He was an asshole(yeah, an asshole) in all the "contest" situation, and now he's acting like a little child...say one thing in interviews, others in twitter...why open your mounth (or fingers) to talk if you don't have anything to say?
He's not help himself. He's not help in the whole situation.

Sorry. Like I said, I'm very sad. It's just hard for me to imagine a statement like: "Richie Sambora is out of Bon Jovi." Very hard.

I remember when 'Aftermath' came out how Richie talked it up in interviews, said it was the most artistically-fulfilling thing he's ever done. On the "Kelly and Michael" TV show, the hosts asked him what musicians he liked performing with the most, and he said, 'These guys right here' (his solo band).

On its face, you could read Richie's latest Tweet as simply a re-statement of fact: It's not new information that he thinks 'Aftermath' is his best work as an artist. He's said that before.

As for Bon Jovi, Richie also seemed defensive in that Rumor Fix interview from a week or so ago, when asked if he was still a member of the band. He said, 'Who has writing credits on 14 albums? If I'm out of the band, it's news to me!' The fact that he mentioned the writing credits specifically in his response makes me think that this might be part of his contention with Jon (which ties in with what I was trying to get at by posting the Lou Gramm article earlier. Take out Lou Gramm, and you could theoretically have Richie (as co-songwriter) talking about Jon (as lead songwriter). We all know that Bon Jovi is run on Jon's vision. We all know Richie had fewer writing credits on 'WAN' than on any album previous. Why would it be such a stretch to think a similar creative conflict exists between Jon and Richie?

You could read both Richie's 'writing credits on 14 albums' and 'Aftermath' Tweet in the same light: As attempting to assert his place as a writer on his own terms. Surely, it's more fulfilling to write for yourself ('Aftermath') than for someone else (Bon Jovi) but Richie's contribution has been vital to the success of Bon Jovi and it's a relationship that has had its rewards: Jon and Richie are in the Songwriters Hall of Fame as a /team/. Yet, it seems 'WAN' was mostly written without input from Richie.

Richie's heart is still with 'Aftermath', obviously. If nothing else, the Tweet makes that apparent, regardless of any context regarding a supposed 'slam'.

EDIT--just something else that occurred to me: I agree that it seems as though Richie's personality has changed recently: It seems goofy, fun-loving, content-as-second-banana-and-foil-to-Jon-Richie' has been replaced by 'Assertive-perplexing-passive-aggressive-I'm-going-to-do-my-own-thing" Richie'. Whether for right or wrong (and we may never know this, either)--we do tend to make 'characters' out of our celebrities, because we do not know them personally. Chances are Richie might well be a mix of all of these things, but his 'dark side' seems more pronounced right now, and more visible to the public.

I remember a fan who said that, in an unedited version of 'WWWB' they had seen, Jon had joked with a reporter that they'd better have a plan for interviewing Richie, because if he didn't like a line of questioning, he'd walk away (the reporter decided to interview Richie on a yacht to ensure he'd stay put). At the time I heard this, it surprised me, because it didn't square with what I thought was Richie's more accessible, open and fun-loving personae. It made him appear juvenile, petulant, unwilling to be challenged, a bit of a diva.

Jon's hissy-fits onstage also point to a darker side to his personality, born out of his perfectionistic tendencies.

In short, I think that Richie's personality probably hasn't truly /changed/, but that, for whatever reason, it's been pushed to one extreme atm, and it's just one part of his character that we fans hadn't seen. Maybe he was in the same 'headspace' during the "New Jersey" fallout.

Richie has always come off the congenial, lovable, accessible, slightly goofy band member. Obviously he was and is so much more than that as a person and as a performer. But that was his role. He said himself in the documentary that he saw his job as keeping the lead singer (Jon) happy. I think that cost him big time and contributed to some extent to his alcoholism.

I really like some of the songs on Aftermath and he has a right to be proud of it. I am guessing that he wants a bigger or more acknowledged role not only as a band member and songwriter partner but as his own artist and performer. I think the band is strong enough and successful enough to incorporate some of Richie's vision/needs into the stage performance but whether Jon is strong enough to allow it is another thing entirely. When a person has a lot of power, it is hard to let go of some of it. Richie was never given the chance to incorporate some of his being into the production. And yes, I think this is deja vu from their tense relationship years ago. Whether the outcome will be the same is another thing entirely.

I want him back in the band but I wish him well regardless (as I wish the band well regardless). If it is time to leave, it is time to leave.

Aside from the fact that Richie's latest idiotic tweet is a transparent attempt to get Bon Jovi fans back onto his side, it's also a bit perplexing, since Aftermath is an honest-to-god shitty, uninspired effort. If this is his declaration of what he can do without Jon's considerable mediocrity holding him back, no one should be impressed.

How much longer can this sad pissing match between two washed up wanna-rockstars who sold out their artistic integrity almost twenty years ago proceed? One thing is for certain; this thread has been an absolute marvel to follow through. I have noticed at various message boards for fangroups of many different things, that once the object of fandom reaches a certain mass of shittiness, the whole thing becomes comic parody; the fun is almost in making fun of the mediocre object in question, rather than actually admiring it. Jovitalk has reached this critical mass, and honestly I think is all the better for it. :popcorn:

What the **** are you jabbering on about?

For anyone that still doesn't understand what being a songwriter means, or musical integrity - there's a lot of people who don't solely care about shifting a huge amount of "units" of a "product" (that's the album).

Some people actually care about the quality of the music they make.

That music may not be to your liking, but it's what THEY want to MAKE.

So get over yourself not liking Aftermath.

Richie is NOT "just" Bon Jovi's guitar player. He is under no obligation to remain JUST Bon Jovi's guitarist for the rest of his life.

Let him spread his wings, make the music he wants, and maybe in time there will be a fantastic BJ album.

Notice I'm also not hating on Jon. You don't have to hate one to like the other.
They're the best feckin' band in the World, remember?!?! ;)

Richie's latest tweet seems odd since just last week he was reminding us who had writing and producing credits on all the Bon Jovi albums - in case, y'know, we might have forgotten.

Richie is entitled to his opinion but he'd be hard pushed to find anyone else who thinks AOTL is his best work. Even as a solo act, it's number 2 at best. It isn't in the same league as Stranger.

I don't know - I've gone through several stages with AOTL - hated it at first because it wasn't what I expected. Then loved it. Then overplayed it and was "meh" about it. Now it's settled as a fine album - with more great tracks than I originally gave credit for.

Stranger is a classic. But it doesn't stand so well as a timeless piece, given it's reverb and production. And while it has some amazing songs of its own - Ballad, Stranger, Rosie, One Light....I think I like the idea of it more than the song content itself.

Songs like Broken Wing came alive after hearing them on the tour. Nowadays, Sugar Daddy, World - all suck ass, because of production more than anything else.

I will concede, however, that someone with some PR know-how should be helping out in a far greater capacity with both BJ the band and RS as an individual.
Though of course we're not happy when we hear nothing, and unhappier still when we get a tweet that doesn't enlighten us...

U ARE A **** WIT .

I really like AOTL personally. I've said it several times but tracks 7-10 are incredible. They piss on most of Bon Jovi's post 2000 output. Every Road is good, Burn that Candle Down is good and Takin a Chance on the Wind could have been excellent based on the live version (the production on the album track makes it sound too generic for me). So for me it beats Undiscovered Soul hands down.

Stranger is breathtaking though for me. The three soungs from 3-5 and the last two are sublime. The rest are solid.

The guy is talented and I love his work. Just a shame he is coming across as a selfish, self obsessed, unprofessional prick.

Fair play on everything you said! Good comments.

And have to say - I can totally understand someone saying he's "coming across" like that. I think that's absolutely fine and acceptable.
Think there's a fine line between that and "the guy's a prick!".

:)

I agree with this. Having met Richie myself, as well as just what I know about the guy, I just really don't see him being a prick.

Richie needs to heed the advice of Sir Ronan of Keating- You say it best, when you say nothing at all.

These cryptic tweets pussying around the subject do no one any favours and just make you look sad and petty. It's a blessing that Jon isn't a Facebooker or a Twitterer, his silence and show-must-go-on stance in a lot more dignified than Richie's veiled stabs, whilst intermittently professing love for the fans that he has, for whatever reason or fault, let down by choice.

Just wish they would shut up and end the saga one way or another and the fans are given the respect we deserve to let us know where we stand with our favourite band, rather than deliberately holding out and letting us stump up the cash for tickets etc... with false hope and maybes.

But *nobody* seemed happy with the initial silence, and begged for some words.
At least it seems a cryptic tweet every now and again divides opinion ;)

And further to RS being a prick....a friend of mine was Bon Jovi's driver in the UK in the early-mid 80s. He says Richie was "a right w@nker". I wouldn't be surprised. What up and coming rockstar in their early 20s isn't....but I think we all hope that over time things improved!

I think any suggestions that he's just a prick in general are a little harsh. Everybody I've ever spoken to who's met him or knows him says he's a great guy and that's how he comes across on stage and when being interviewed.

You won't be surprised to hear that Ronan "Sings Through His Nose" Keating didn't write that song.

Is that Ian Beale in your avatar?

Of course, I certainly wouldn't give him any credit!

And yes, yes it is. Beale with it :cool:

Are you even the slightest aware of the magnitude of what you're (unfoundedly) implying?

This. I'm getting more and more confused with every statement, to the point I'm not even sure I'm bothering to try and understand them at all anymore.

I think we share the same brain, ;) I read that post this morning and that line jumped out at me in big neon letters. I wanted to post something but knew whatever I posted would come off sounding snarky. So I didn't. Glad you did.

Nice pic Sir. That moustache really does it for me...

I sometimes think you share the same brain, too. :) Perhaps mine simply isn’t awake yet, but what is it that you both think is being implied?

(I’m probably going to regret asking that later... when I’m fully cognizant… :sleeping:

"Beale with it"

The single most profound thing said in over 800 pages.

Nobody can follow that.