Continued Discussion of Richie Drama
 

***Another moderator tried to move these posts from the Burning Bridges thread and couldn't. I tried and also couldn't. The original Richie thread link isn't recognized as a valid link. Maybe it's too long at this point. At any rate, there's no point in clogging up the Burning Bridges thread with the Richie Drama. Proceed in this thread....




The guy left in the middle of a tour without warning and he still gives lesson. That was one year and a half ago but I'm still amazed by how stupid Richie can be.

You don't know why he left. You don't know that he left without warning. You don't know that he's stupid. You apparently haven't learned yet that almost anyone can give lessons about something. And you can't count. (It's been almost two and a half years since Richie left.)

But you're amazed at how stupid Richie can be??? :roll:

Well, when I read some guy explaining that people want the real stuff after he gave up on fans who had bought expensive tickets to actually see live the real deal, I certainly question this guy's common sense.
The thing is we all know what a mess Richie. As we all know why he left: because he couldn't stand being in Jon's shadow anymore.

As for the 1 year end a half, I wasn't referring to Richie's departure but to the date of the article I was reacting to. Kisses.

The only conclusion I can draw from that is that you must also question the common sense of everyone who has said, in one way or another, that "it's just not Bon Jovi without Richie" because he only said what a number of people think. And that number includes not only quite a few of the fans on this board, but many of the people who reviewed their shows.

Bottom line: Just because you disagree with people's behavior - especially when you have no way of knowing their motivation - doesn't mean they're stupid. It only means that, just possibly, you are jumping to conclusions.


No, we don't know either of those things. We can only assume.


Well, then here's another lesson for you: There's no way I could know that you were referring to the article because, just like you, I only know what I read. And I came to the wrong conclusion because I incorrectly assumed that I knew what you were thinking and why you posted what you posted.

See how easily that can happen?:p

Mwahhhh!

Well, gee Sebastiaan, when you put it that way... it becomes painfully clear that, in this particular situation, you don't have a clue in hell about the point I was making.

First, I've read a lot more about what a great liability Richie was on the last 4 tours since April 2013, than I ever read while those tours were going on, especially from you. In fact, IIRC, your opinion then was typically that it was Jon's lack of interest, declining vocal abilities, boring setlists, or whatever other burr had gotten under your saddle at the time that presented the biggest liability.

It's only been since Richie disappointed the fans that such a glaring spotlight has been focused on the insufferable ineptitude you and others apparently think he demonstrated during those tours. Keep in mind, too, that the fans' beef with Richie didn't come from his action as much it did from the fact that since they didn't know his reason(s), they assumed he didn't have one that was good enough to justify what he did. Many fans said it would have been okay if he had done it for the "right" reason.

Second, there are many people in this world who have all of the same "inabilities" you listed, but that doesn't prove that they're stupid. Some, in fact, are quite brilliant!

As for your parting shot, if you're referring to me, let me remind you that at no point in that post, or any other that I can recall, have I defended Richie's choice(s). I've never said that it was right for him to walk out on the tour; just that I believed there must be a good reason why he did it.

The only thing I've defended, from day one, is my opinion that people judge unfairly when they do so without having all the facts, which we just don't have in this situation and probably never will have. My opinion is one you apparently don't share, which is fine; but it's really not necessary to show your own "inability" to interpret a simple post in order to prove it.

]

The breach I mention in Richie's common sense is not about thinking Bon Jovi is no longer what it used to be without Richie, which is obvious, but about Richie's apparent problem with the band keeping touring while he's away. How stupid do you have to be for blaming them to keep playing when YOU ran away leaving the band and thousands of fans who had bought expensive tickets helpless? I'm sorry but when you go awol, the best you can do is keep your mouth shut.

We don't need to assume anything since he's everywhere saying how he used to be the frontman before he joined Bon Jovi and how he felt the urge to be the frontman again and that's the reason why he left Bon Jovi. There's no need to assume what the guy himself says.

Once again, I don't blame Richie for leaving because I can understand that after all these years he needed, his midlife crisis helping, something different. But let me blame him for doing it the Richie way, which means the dumbest way possible.

Why on earth would Richie think that Jon would stop a tour because he didn't show up? He didn't stop it when Richie was in rehab in 2011 and that was apparently with Jon's blessing. You think Richie figured Jon would stop it if he pissed him off by walking away? It never even occurred to me that Jon would stop the tour. And Richie knows him a lot better than I do.


He gave several reasons for needing a break. The assumption occurs when you decide that you, or anybody else outside of the people involved, can know for a fact that there aren't other reasons, perhaps some that he isn't sharing with the world at large, for why he didn't return to finish the tour.

He said the same thing about fronting when he was promoting Stranger in 91 and US in 98. Nobody thought that it was a midlife crisis when he said it then.

He also said he needed to be at home with his daughter and that the band needed a break from touring. All of those are valid reasons for needing a break, but none of them explain why he walked away mid-tour.

Given Bon Jovi's history of keeping dirty laundry to themselves, and sharing only the parts of the story they think will maintain the image they've always had, can you say with absolute certainty that the only reason, or even the primary reason, Richie didn't return to the tour is because he suddenly decided that he was tired of standing in Jon's shadow, as he had done for 30 years, and that there wasn't some other catalyst to trigger it?

You don't need my permission to blame anybody for anything. If that's what floats your boat, go for it.

In the meantime, this has gone way off-topic. I'll be happy to continue the discussion with you if you like. PM me if you want to carry it further, ok?

Aloha !

Actually, I do know which point you were making, but you're just not making it.

Well yeah, but that's because information has come out after the last 4 tours. When it comes to keeping the Bon Jovi brand going, the actual product, and producing a show in the first place, Richie has been the liability. Even during The Circle tour, rumours started to come out on how Richie wasn't showing up for rehearsals. Richie used to be the one in charge of rehearsals and soundchecks. That changed to David the last few years, even when Richie was still in the band. Some dirt has come out, both on this board and off this board when talking to crew members.

There's a different liability here. When it comes to making the shows more spontaneous and playing more varied shows I'm absolutely positive it's been Jon who's holding back the entire thing. The creative thing in Bon Jovi was halted by Jon, and it still is. However, when it comes to actually playing the show in the first place, it's been kind of obvious how Richie has been the biggest liability. If you are unable to play, you're a liability. He was drunk pretty much the entire HAND tour, was incapable of doing MTV Unplugged, had to cancel a show in South America, dropped out of a leg in 2010 and then did the same thing in 2011. Yeah, that makes you the biggest liability out there, when it comes to actually playing a show and being in a band.

And what would this right reason be? If you drop out of a tour and don't give any reason other than "needing to see your daughter", you're a moron. You sign up for a tour, and you finish it. Especially if at least 500.000 people have bought a ticket and expect you to be there. If he didn't want to tour, he shouldn't have signed up for it. It's that easy.

Now I'm sure there have been reasons that have not been shared with us, but there's just no excuse for his behaviour. There isn't, yet there's still people thinking that Richie left for a good reason. It's probably a good reason in Richie land, but other than that he's a selfish prick.

And which ones would that be? There's been absolutely nothing in Richie's career the last decade that indicates that he's not a complete **** up.

Because that's what he's been hinting at. Richie's never said it directly, but saying things like "Well it's not really Bon Jovi without me" pretty much means that he kind of expected the thing to be blown off. Just like he expected to return for the European and South American legs, and Jon telling him no was a surprise to him. That's what Roll's been saying.

It's not so much fans not willing to accept that these are the reasons that's the issue here, it's you who seems to need a valid other reason for Richie doing the things he does. It's as if you can't make peace with the thought of Richie actually dropping out for the reasons he stated.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

Can you elaborate? Where did you hear that? Or is it your assumption?

There were a few interviews in 2013 where he said stuff like that. First he stated that "Hyde Park would be a realistic option for a return", later on it was the South American leg. Those statements were made by Richie while the tour was still going, of course.

He did give a reason and a very valid one too.

I'm power phrasing here but he stated that it was just too much and consumed his entire life. It was a never ending cycle. They would tour and once the tour ended, he was back writing for the next record, recording, and touring again.

Saying he missed out on a lot of time with his daughter was his main reason but anyone with a little common sense could understand, after reading the above statement, that he means life. Friends, Family, his own solo records, etc have all been put on hold because of the Bon Jovi Corporation.

Something tells me that Jon's not the easiest person to work or get along with either...

The dude just burnt out and probably thought it was best to just go before he fell off the wagon again.

For the record, he mostly said, "my daughter needed me" which is totally different from "needing to see your daughter".

Anyway, he doesn't owe the public any explanation. Sometimes something happens in your life and you can't fulfill your contractual obligations, shit happens!

If Stephanie had ODed while Jon was on tour, don't you think that he would have canceled a show or two to be by her side? Would you have called him a moron for not showing up on show day although there were "at least 500.000 people (who had) bought a ticket and expect(ed) you to be there."? I think that Jon would have completely forgotten his work ethics in such circumstances and I base my speculations on the fact that he was in Europe when Sandy hit the Jersey shore and wanted to go back to NYC immediately although he was scheduled to appear in several shows: off with his "the show must go on no matter what" policy. He couldn't fly back home only because he couldn't find a flight (NJ/NY airports were under water) so he went on doing business as usual or else he would have let down everybody (fans) just the same.

+1. We don't know anything about it so calling him names is just plain stupid and childish. As Hugh put it in his latest interview, it's not what Richie did but how he did it.
I remember an interview where Richie explained that he was about to leave to go back on tour when his daughter told him she needed him and wanted him to drive her to school. She was 15 back then and just a few months earlier her mother had been rushed to hospital because she had been found unresponsive after what was rumored to be a suicide attempt. I'm a father myself and my first teaching assignment was in a highschool where the majority of the pupils came from dysfunctional families, i.e. I'm used to interacting with teenagers so I can imagine and understand what was going on in her mind at that time.
Or maybe Ava was perfectly alright and Richie just used her as an excuse to justify his behavior, who knows? Then yes, he would be a moron!

I said it before and I'll say it again: I believe that he was burnt out (although he said he wasn't in several interviews, but denial is part of the problem) and when you break down, you lose control and behave in unusual ways. And that is a valid excuse because burnout is an illness.

If, as you said, he had been a liability for years then it was his employer's responsibility to do something about it and not hire him any longer. When Jon explained that he knew beforehand what Paul was about to tell him (i.e. that Richie hadn't come to Calgary) he implied that he knew that Richie wouldn't show up one day or another so why not do something about it to prevent it from happening? A good CEO needs to anticipate things, when he hides the dust under the rug, he's sure to have to cope with even bigger problems in the long run.

But all of this is just speculation of course. I don't know more than what they said and I'm not looking for excuses, I'm just saying that he did what he did because he most likely thought he couldn't do otherwise at that very moment. Whether it was an impulsive or a fully thought out action I don't know, I don't judge him and I expected a better understanding from people who call themselves"fans".

Goddamnit, who the hell reads these walls of ego-drivel?

People who want to, I guess. And perhaps those who don't realize that it's okay to skip ahead if they're not interested in 'ego-drivel'? :p

(Nice term, btw. Has a catchy sound.)

:lol: Isn't "ego-drivel" the middle name of a fan board?!

WARNING!! Possible "ego-drivel" ahead!! If not interested, move on!!

Ah, Rumours and Innuendo...such reliable sources. I hope you don't think they are exclusive, Seb; 'cause they been cheatin' on ya!! Lots of ppl have been talking to the same guys! ;)

Doesn't it seem just a little bit coincidental how much "they" have had to say about Richie since he ticked everyone off?

It's only been "kind of obvious" since April 2013, and that could well be caused by the sh!t-colored glasses ppl have been looking through.

BTW, which leg did Richie drop out of in 2010? I don't recall that one.

I don't know. I didn't say it. You'll have to ask the ppl who did what constitutes a right reason for them. Some of the things I remember were, "I could understand it if his daughter wants him at home" and "if there had been a family member who was sick" or "if he had said something before the tour started". (Of course, that last one went away when it came out later that he HAD told Jon he needed a longer break before the tour started.)

And again, you miss the point, which is that ppl were upset because he didn't give them a reason that they thought was good enough. But if they don't know the reason how can they know if it's good enough or not?

Bingo! And without knowing what those reasons are, how can you possibly know that he's a selfish prick?

I don't know about you, Seb, but I know a LOT of ppl who can't do any of the things you listed; and they're still plenty smart. I once had a manager who couldn't find his way out of a bathroom without a map and couldn't keep track of a 2-day itinerary; but he was a brilliant negotiator who could sell anything and he made a ton playing the stock market. So I'd say he was far from "stupid".

Interpreting what he says as "hints" to what he "pretty much means" pretty much means that you did, in fact, draw your own conclusion without the facts.

So now you think you know what I think; and (big surprise) you're wrong about that, too. I don't need a reason. I'm perfectly at peace with whatever his reasons are, because I never had a need to judge him OR his reasons.

The only problem I have is with ppl who apparently DID need a reason, one that THEY thought justified his actions, but couldn't even wait until they knew what his reasons were before making judgments about the man's character. And still not knowing if they have the whole story or not, the same ppl have now decided that he's a selfish prick (no matter what the unknown reasons might be); and furthermore, he's a moron who hasn't been worth spit for the last decade, or never was that good anyway. They've basically re-written history because they got pissed off.

It's not about Richie and it has nothing to do with living in Richie land. Where I live, we believe that someone, no matter who it is, is "innocent until proven guilty" and that it's not only unfair, but "stupid" as well, to judge someone without facts, because jumping to conclusions often lands you in a ditch.

Like I said to Roll, this is way off-topic. If you want to discuss it further, I'll be happy to, but let's take it to PM. (Except I would like to know about the 2010 leg he dropped off of. :))

Perhaps we will know more with the 2016 release. Jon has said that a lot happened to him and that the new music will be very "pointed." Given his obsession with loyalty (i.e. the BB track), I never bought his statement that he wasn't mad at Richie..."being in the band isn't a life sentence." I doubt that he will ever trust Richie again or forgive him.

While I hated that Richie left the tour especially since by all accounts he was "on fire" the first leg of the tour while Jon was getting flak for his static delivery and not moving around on stage, it's done and we need to all move on. Richie has all the fame and money he needs; if he is seeking artistic freedom and being able to lead his own band, more power to him. I personally think another factor in his leaving was not being able to sing a song off his solo cd while Jon took a stage break. I understand Jon wanting it to be a purely Bon Jovi concert but I still think it was part of Richie's breaking point.

Wait a minute! Ego-drivel or echo-drivel? Or echo-ego-drivel? Aaah! This is driving me crazy! :bang:

Still I'm enjoying the show! :popcorn: :icecream:

"Drama" has become a Sambora staple.
I had written a short novel trying to show why I feel/think the things I do but changed my mind. Long story short, I'm worried about him. He is surrounded by no one who would discourage him (participators) and there are a lot of IG, TW , videos and posts that seem to indicate he is way off his sobriety. Plus so many deleted tweets and IG's by his circle - but they were seen, feels shady.

A bit of humility would have gone a long way IMO when he left - a simple I'm sorry to the fans, it's personal and not "hate it for the fans because not getting the real thing". I know there is the side who feel he didn't owe an apology but people spend and planned for that tour. I tried to understand, as a single parent if I had 65M in the bank I would have quit too. But he quickly spent more time away on his shows and vacations (without Ava) than if he had finished the tour. Maybe problem resolved, maybe a new interest or just want to do what he wants, when he wants. But, Lost credibility for me. The last "exorbitant amount of money" to rejoin the band was also a thorn to me.

Read this somewhere and it is such a true statement. (I was raised by an addict so I maybe see red flags others may not or I just expect them):
"An Alcoholic is an Egotist with An Inferiority Complex."

I cant beleive this topic is still being discussed ! Jesus christ ...

I couldn't agree more.

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His Dad passed away in 2006 and the tour continued. But yet he missed his daughter (HIS WORDS) and he walked out on a commitment letting a lot of fans down. No logic and 100% inexcusable. He had an opportunity before the tour was put together to bail out and didn't.

Did Richie tweet this? I'm sure he did

Because people are still deluded and actually are comfortable by it. I'll never forgive the c**t. I bought golden circle at Villa Park, UK (the home of my favourite football team). Its my 2 biggest passions in life - Aston Villa FC and Bon Jovi coming together under one roof. For me it doesn't get much better. And Richie pretty much ****ed it. Yes I had an opportunity for a refund but in a weird way I felt loyalty to the rest of the band, like others, to show solidarity and support. So that is why I feel like I needed an explanation. As a paying fan - it's not a lot to ask.

And that's just one story. I bet hundreds and thousands of other fans have their reasoning too.

Actually his wife filed for divorce in Feb 2006 and he also learned that his dad had cancer in 2006, around June, I think. It was the following year when his divorce became final and his dad died, almost within the same week in April 2007. But I'm glad you brought it up because among Seb's reasons why (at least since April 2013) anyone can see what a liability Richie has been, all but one occurred during the HAND tour (November 2005 - July 2006) or in June 2007 less than 6 weeks after his Dad's death. A thinking person might wonder if there could possibly be a connection between the instability of Richie's performances and that particular timeframe. Hmmm...

But you are right. He DID carry on. Which is exactly why I say it makes no sense now and why I don't think we have the whole story about this situation (and therefore, IMO, can’t possibly know if it’s excusable or not). I know that Richie said, in his own words, that he missed his daughter. He also said that he needed a break. He also said that the band was going in a different direction. None of those things is necessarily a lie. But let’s say I go to the store to buy a week’s worth of groceries and my list included apples and pasta. When someone asks what I bought I can truthfully answer, “Apples and pasta.” It’s not a lie; but it doesn’t explain what’s in the other 8 bags I brought home either. So it doesn’t tell the whole story.

There were too many partial reasons given (reasons that wouldn't air Jovi's dirty laundry, if that’s what the primary reason is – and I’m not saying it is, but it could be). But none of them explains why he would leave in the middle of a tour and none of them have anything to do with the FIRST answer he gave, which was "Jon and I just aren't happening right now. But a band's like family and family business stays in the family." That, not any delusion, is what makes me think that something was going on behind the scenes that they aren't going to talk about. It has nothing to do with whether I like Richie or not. It's what makes the most sense when you look at the whole picture with eyes that aren't clouded by anger or suspicion.

Apparently, he didn't want to give up his rightful place in a band that he helped build; and going on tour, against his better judgment, was the only choice he was given. Or maybe something happened AFTER the tour started.

I'm pretty sure that he did NOT tweet this. I don't think he said it either. I think it's another example of Seb's faulty memory or revisionist history like the 2010 leg of The Circle Tour that Richie allegedly dropped off of. Because when he was asked about Hyde Park (which was after South Africa and was at the very end of the EU leg), he said, "No, that would be too soon.” Then when the reporter pressed further by suggesting September, Richie said, "Maybe... that might be good." And when the press incorrectly reported that he had said he WOULD be back in September he clarified with a tweet the next day saying that it wasn't definite, he had only said it was possible he could return by September.

Wrong. I'm not in the least “deluded”. I KNOW that we probably don’t have the whole story! LOL

I am also completely aware that it could very well be true that Richie underwent a total personality change and turned his back on the fans, the band, his own personal work ethic, and walked away for no reason at all. But just because it COULD be true doesn't necessarily mean that it IS. Please explain to me what is delusional about recognizing that we don't know the full story of what happened.

IMO, the "deluded" ones are those who take a little bit of this and a little bit of that and presume that THEY KNOW what happened. Then they can come up with the scenario that best justifies their continued scorn, while they totally disregard what we DO know about BJ's history of keeping any ugliness out of the public eye.

Man, that sucks; and I'm truly sorry that you were disappointed. I can totally understand why you're angry and why you wanted an explanation. And if you choose to never forgive Richie, that is certainly within your rights. Just as it is within my rights to voice an opinion about what I see as the unfairness of judging without the whole story. And as long as people continue to do that, I will propably continue to exercise my right to object.

Neither your anger nor your unwillingness to forgive Richie changes the fact that we may never know if we have the real reason(s) why he left mid-tour. And they don't change my opinion that it's unfair to judge him without knowing what those reasons are. I am not "deluded" simply because you're angry or because I disagree with you (or with other people who made up their minds before ANY reasons were given and are now re-writing history to conform to the premature assumptions they made).

Sorry, but those are actual facts with no delusion to create any haziness for anyone.

Richie's always been my hero alongside Jon, and the two of them together have that creative spark that on any given day, makes them the best band in the world. I'm no fan of Richie's solo work, but what he brought to Bon Jovi alongside Jon, is something special. Even though Richie's been piss drunk at shows, his guitar playing erratic, his off-tour life something that just makes you blink in a mystified manner - he has the ability to be a genius at what he does. Without it, Bon Jovi can still be a really, really good band, but I don't know if they can ever be great. I'd love for Jon and whatever guitarists he has to prove me wrong on that though.

That being said - whatever his reasons were for walking off the tour, and Jackie I'm sorry but I don't think there's any great conspiracy here, Richie just didn't want to go to work - because he did that, mid-tour, he doesn't deserve to be in the band and it doesn't sound like he wants to be anyway.

So I'm pretty much over Richie. If there's ever a way he can come back with any dignity, and I don't know if that's possible, then great but otherwise I'm happy to see where the band goes from here - they might not be great, but they could still be really ****ing good.