Can you hear Richie's absence from THINFS?
 

Honestly, safe for the slightly disoriented solo, I can't. The last song I remember which sounded distinctly like Richie wrote certain parts is probably Thorn In My Side or Bullet, neither of which was released as a single. The last prominent backing vocal I can remember goes as far back as The Distance, even.

Sometime's it's hard to tell who contributed what but as far as backing vocals go he is missed. It was him 90 percent of the time, usually giving it his all so even when the guitar playing was watered down by the book I knew we'd get some good vocals out of it. Guitar playing wise the difference is negligible. The solo isn't hooky, would have loved a memorable Richie solo.

It's deafening.

As I've said before, it is Jon PLUS Richie that made Bon Jovi a premium brand. They are out a co-composer, co-lyricist, lead backup singer and co-onstage presence as well as a lead guitarist, and it shows very much.

My take is it's deafening but it's as deafening as it's always been for the post 2000 era. The songs coming out don't lend itself well for his playing. He was a co-composer, co-lyricist and co-onstage presence for all of the recent albums and the vanilla guitar parts could have been anyone. This song included.

It's kind of weird how people critisize the solo for not sounding Richie enough, I think it sounds exactly like Richie, which is my only gripe with the song. It could almost get confused with the Lost Highway solo just in a different key....

So let me get this straight,

It's "deafening" and easy to tell there's no Richie in this song?

Are you serious? The guitar parts for the last several albums, minus a few, could have been played by anyone.

This solo could have very easily been Richie. We just know it's not because he's no longer in the band.

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To me, Richie was pretty absent from What About Now anyway. I don't believe he was around for much of the sessions and when he was he was phoning it in. He had lost the passion for the band by this point and his stamp is missing from that whole album.

Classic Richie hasn't been heard on a BJ release for a long time anyways, so this sounds no different than the last few records. Compare it to Bounce, for instance, then Richie's absence is glaringly obvious...

Honestly... No... I said to a friend who's a casual fan I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing... But no I really hear no difference maybe adds fuel to the fire that This House is the same old shit jovi have been churning out...

He's not sorely missed in my eyes/ears in the song (or in general) and I don't mean that in a nasty way. Maybe it's because the band don't excite me as much as they used to and the fact that Bon Jovi has been getting more and more about Jon over the last 10 years anyway. Plus like some of you have said already, the guitar work on the last 6 albums has taken the backseat anyway so it makes no difference who's playing.

I only recently watched a live performance of "We Don't Run" on YouTube and it was a little weird not seeing Richie, but only a little. A lot of the time I was like "So what".

I did think that Phil X would actually spice things up musically now that he's officially in the band, but I guess not.

Sure but until the album drops he's still at the same level he was always at, just in a photo and the music video. We haven't heard anything he's recorded with the band yet.

Very true, I think I jumped the gun a bit too quick there! Maybe there'll be more "him" on some of the album tracks.

Gosh I hope so. I was gutted he only started recording with the band after the album was just about done. Would have loved his intensity on the tracks.

This is that question that goes round and round...

It's a different band, different Jon, different sound... Since Shanks, these albums are so generically made that it's basically Jon's voice with filler sounds. You can probably bring in the KOS and not notice a difference.

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I think the lack of difference between THINFS and the last couple of records says more about Richie's involvement in those than it does about the new song. Maybe him bitching about not having that much input anymore was actually true? I'd always thought that was a little cheap, given he'd co-writen 100% of The Circle, but maybe it wasn't afterall.

I've not seen anything in the writing or the music in a long time that was "stand out" for me. We don't run came close. Good but almost as if they got into a pattern, or to some a rut. From that perspective I don't miss him at all. Most professional guitarists can play what is coming out now. The way Richie seemed in Europe, just sloppy (to be kind) - not on his A game at all, so unless he finds that again....would it matter?

What I do miss and probably always will is the vocal fit he and Jon had together. The live antics that made us believe in a band of brothers. If he ever came back at this point, with so much water under the bridge I don't know if it would be the same anyway.

I think PhilX is doing a great job and he seems so appreciative to be there - look at his smile in the video, like a kid at Christmas. I hope when we hear the songs he did record we can hear his sound. He didn't write however so I'm not sure. He did start bringing out his personality later in the tour and I liked it.

Despite of all the mediocre and bad songs, I think over the last years Jon has proven that he is still very capable of writing music without Richie. And not only on his own, but with co-writers like John Shanks or Billy Falcon. So we (possibly) will still get very good Jovi-style music in the future. :)

As for Phil X, I agree with what you wrote. I didn't know him before he came to/joined Bon Jovi, but in the meantime I saw him at a BJ concert and listened to some of his own stuff, and I'm thrilled to hear what he played on THINFS, of course only if the Jon-John duo let him give his best ;) Even though he clearly can't deliver the same magical vocal harmonies to Jon's voice as Richie could.
On a side-note, the 2014 Richie show I went on was very fun, but also a bit disappointing, but I'm happy seeing he seems to be getting back on track.

All the more since PhilX is a KOS too.

PhilX is first and foremost a studio musician, ie he can play music written by others the way they want him to play it, not HIS way. You can hear he didn't play on THINFS because of the lack of fluidity and dexterity in the solo but apart from that, I very much doubt that we'll get to hear his signature licks or tone in the 4 songs he did play.

Phil in NOT a KOS!!! Phil has played with the KOS, but he has his own band... The KOS is Bobby's band and you could see ALL those members playing with Bobby all over NJ... And Phil is not with them...

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I agree. Everyone is assuming he wrote the guitar parts for the songs he does play on. I am not so sure.

What do you mean the solo lacks fluidity and dexterity?

Right, Phil has a reputation as being a studio musician, a very good one though. But he is also very capable of creating his own songs, parts and stuff. So it would be quite sensible for Jon to let him have a bit of artistic freedom and give his music a fresh touch, otherwise he could just let Shanks play all the parts (like on BB). Maybe that's just wishful thinking, but I very much hope that Phil got to create his parts himself, at least to some extent.

Wrong. KOS is JON's band (assembled by Bobby B.) for his solo and charity gigs. Phil played at several Jon and the KOS concerts hence he IS a KOS. Whoever backs up Jon at those gigs is a KOS. Plain and simple.
http://www.blameitonthelove.com/2013...atoga-set.html


Bobby's band is Bobby's band, called "The Bobby Bandiera Band", "Bobby Bandiera and Friends" or "The Bobby Bandiera's Jersey Shore Rock'n'Soul Revue" and the line-up is slightly different from one show to another. It's been this way for over 30 years.

https://www.facebook.com/BobbyBandiera/

http://www.newjerseystage.com/articl...le.php?ID=3735

http://tablet.olivesoftware.com/Oliv...F14&id=Ar03503


That's right, PhilX too has his own band: The Drills.

Exactly!!! You just summed it up!!! It's Jon's band assembled by Bobby. And of course Bobby doesn't play solo under that name! Jon leaves it up to Bobby to assemble the KOS and Bobby is not assembling Phil... Jon will ask Phil to join the band at larger events where more electric Bon Jovi songs are being played but he is by no means a member of KOS... His performances with that band have been VERY LIMITED compared to how long and how many shows they've played to date. I'm sure if Bobby was asked who the lead guitar player was, his answer wouldn't be Phil X.

So stop trying to confuse people with the garbage that makes sense in your head....

Everyone? No, not me! I'm convinced he wrote nothing, he just played what Jon, John, Falcon or so-and-so had written before he was asked to come to the recording studio.

Lack of fluidity and dexterity means that the arpeggio sounds like it was recorded note by note then all the notes were digitally glued together or maybe Shanks recorded it in one take but it sounds like a warm-up exercice when you play one note after another very distinctly.
Describing a sound with words is very hard! Maybe you should look for "guitar dexterity" videos on YT, it should be clearer.


A very good studio musician is a musician who doesn't put his personal touch into his playing when he's hired to play somebody else's music. It's the true definition of the job.

Methinks it's the reason why Jon hired him, and not because Phil can write his own songs. That's why I'm pretty sure we won't be able to identify him as opposed to Shanks on the album. But I'd love to be wrong.

The same to you! :mrgreen:

No. YOU are the only one in the world to say/think so and you're wrong. Bobby assembled a band because Jon, his employer, asked him to and Jon, not Bobby, called the band the KOS. That's why it's JON'S BAND, not Bobby's.

No Shit!!! We are past all that... We are talking about Phil X being a member of the KOS and I corrected you by stating that he's not a member, he has just played with them a few times on what, 3 separate occasions...(I don't consider that time when Jon mixed the band and the KOS together one of them)...

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Note to self: order this book ASAP

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...SH20_OU01_.jpg

It's ridiculous, which is why I don't post here much anymore.

Well if Jon had let Richie have a bit of artistic freedom this conversation would probably not be taking place.

No value lost

Something is going on between Jon and Richie which is much bigger than I think we understand.

Jon has one of the best guitar players in his band yet he's keep him caged for the past few albums. It just doesn't add up... I really think it's Jon's ego. Richie just wants to rock in a rock band and Jon wants to go in every direction.

With Jon's vocal condition the way it is, they should rely on the music. Pink Flamingos is the best opener to an album and it's played before Jon utters a word. Just saying...

But what is his ego trying to prove? If the songs are vanilla he looks better? I dont think its ego based so much as really simple songs with universal lyrics.

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I think it's a Jon knows best thing and he doesn't care what anyone else thinks or says for that matter...

I disagree completely. I never bought the whole Jon is holding Richie back theory.

Richie's influence declined together with his condition (HAND era). As he became unreliable, Jon started to relying less and less on him. Not only was he battling addictions, but his playing declined as much as Jon's singing, he even lost his guitar tone. If anything, I felt like his last few years in the band Richie was well protected by standing in his axe-man position, lazily playing the same solos and singing backup vocals. When he left the band to do solo shows (and duet shows with Ori) it truly illustrated how far he's fallen.

Plus, remember Aftermath? It wasn't some epic bluesy guitar-driven album we were expecting at the time. To me (and many others) it sounded like a lot like Bon Jovi circa 2000s (e.g. Bounce). So maybe that's the musician Richie is these days. Don't get me wrong, so is Jon, but I just find the whole Richie is a caged animal stuff unrealistic.

Don't be a knob, mate. It's people like yourself that's stopping people adding 'value' to this form due to almost every thread going way off topic. Over the past few years, I've stopped posting a hell of a lot compared to what I used too down to the fact that thresds go off topic with petty arguing and then they get locked and then you genuinely have lost the 'value' to the board.

It's been said many times before that you guys should either ignore or private message each other. Don't be one of those that pushes people away from the board. Some have been here a long long time and whether you think they add 'value' to the board or not, I certainly know they do to A LOT of people.

Can I suggest the use of the ignore button if you find a particular member of the forum annoying or pointless to converse with. There's a lot of valued posters here and you don't need to stop posting just one of the basis of one of more individuals.

Right, but people Do change and are - At least theoretically - learn from their mistakes. And as already posted here, it might also be that Richie just didnt't have enough motivation or mental/physical power to deliver some really good stuff.
I would love a world in which everything would have remained nice Jon-and-Richie-wise. But I for my part have decided to accept things as they are and to look forward to what the future might bring.

But why should hard facts (that can easily be proved, just click on the links I posted) be denied?
And why can't I post a word without RDK jumping on my throat?

Don't answer, just rhetorical questions. I don't want you to be accused of derailing the thread because of me.

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I can buy this theory as well. Or is it the chicken and egg question?
According to Bobby B., Richie (and the rest of the band) wasn't too happy when he was hired by Blonde Anchovy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Xx...u.be&t=1h1m29s

and he didn't look happy when Shanks was hired -although he said he was:



It's what some fans expected but is it what Richie said it would be? I don't remember it all now but I do remember him saying Aftermath covered several musical genres and he said the same again about his album with Ori. Both always insist on the fact that it won't be a guitar-driven album or a blues-only album.

Dexterity has nothing to do with sound, it is about coverage of the fretboard. I'll get to the solo in the second, but Shanks has been playing guitar for years, I doubt he lacks dexterity to a level where it would mess up a solo or be noticeable.

The solo is ultra bland for sure, but if we're levelling a lack of dexterity (which I guess you mean Shanks didn't jump around the board enough) at it, then we can include a bunch of Bon Jovi solos in that. Just about every one from the last 10 years in fact, and plenty before that. Sambora, even at his best, loved playing in the box despite his huge reach. I would say it lacks dynamic playing and creative solo building more than just plain dexterity. Amazing solos can be composed without dexterous playing.

As for fluidity, I guess it is based on opinion. The solo is a meaningless flurry of notes to me, but it is fluid. It follows a proper musical pattern and makes sense. The result is totally meh for sure, but I think it is musically sound.

When you are playing guitar at home or anywhere else and decide to record something, do you ever do it note for note? I am not sure if you play, I do and that would be painful and would not work for me. This solo I don't know, but I doubt it is note for note recording.

A one take scenario is more likely, but to me it just sounds like a solo from someone or a group (Shanks and Jon) who feel they have to put a solo in a song but don't give a shit if it is quality. It's what Bon Jovi has been doing for years. Richie and his solo album included.

Excuse me? But the way you cover the fretboard designs the sound you produce, doesn't it?

I didn't say that "Shanks messed up the solo", that is YOUR (mis)interpretation of what I wrote. I just gave my opinion, I talked about the way I perceived the solo. Your opinion is different, fine, a forum is a place made for sharing opinions and thoughts, isn't it? But please read what's written and not what you think is written.

Since you asked, I'm just a humble hobby musician but I hire professional bands all year long so I guess I know quite a lot about playing and recording music (but I don't claim I know everything). ANYTHING is possible in a studio, especially now with computers, sky's the limit. Producers like Avicii and his disciples are famous for recording words syllable by syllable, so why not do the same with notes to delete bum notes or notes which don't sound exactly the way you want or whatever audio problem you met while recording? I know people who do it, that's why it doesn't seem weird or unusual to me. I'll repeat it: I've never said it was the way BJ did it, I said it's the way it sounds to me.


I agree.