Okay, then what about

Dave Mustaine (Megadeth)
Ritchie Blackmore
Mathias Jabs (Scorpions)
Brad Gills (Nightranger)
Neal Schon (Journey)
Angus Young (AC/DC)

isn't this alarming then if you consider his recent output?

Yes. I am not defending him, I am not impressed with anything he has done for a while, although in this live tour he is improving (not enough for my taste though).

the guy is my idol-those of you who have been kind enough to download my music ( www.facebook.com/thetoiofficial ) can see, hear and FEEL how crucial he is and will always be as a point of reference for guitar, vocals and songwriting in our band.

Saying this, the guy is past caring how good his chops are and despite what he said recently about always wanting to learn, it's clear he can't be arsed and is giving half assed performances. Perhaps that sadly IS his level but we have come to expect more from him although he's been on the wane since 96 and especially downhill since 2003.

Pre 2000 I'd agree with you. But the crap he wrote on his own (Take me on, Willing to try) made me shocked he wrote lyrics that would be right at home on post 2000 Bon Jovi albums.

I'm not gonna change who I am
But I ain't gonna give up the fight
I don't care who's wrong or right
When the push comes to shove
And you tell me you've had enough
You're thinking of giving up on love

I don't see why he's glorified as a musical hero when his footprint in recent Jovi albums is still what it is. He made the point that he tries to steer the band in a more bluesy rock direction but how bad were the lyrics/song styles before that we ended up with them the way they are.

I can't argue with anything you say here (and that's sayjng a lot because my daddy used to say I'd argue with a fence post :)) . But I would like to respond to a couple of points you made.

Why say it's unreal? Because from the standpoint of someone who plays only well enough to accompany myself and then only on pretty easy folksy type stuff, Richie's playing IS unreal or at the very least seems unreal. Maybe because he does bring the whole package. The term 'jack of all trades' comes to mind. Richie may not be a master of any of the things he does, if by 'master' one means unsurpassed technical skill; but the level of artistry he is capable of just astounds me. To be as good as he is (or has been, if you prefer) at so many aspects is another reason I would say it's unreal. His vocal harmonies, the bluesey turns he makes with a string or his voice, while again perhaps not technically excellent, are just uniquely special. For me, I think it's the musician's soul that I see in him that causes him to stand head and shoulders above other musicians as far as I'm concerned. And to repeat, I'm talking about those cases where he's clearly involved in what he's doing, not just going through the motions.

As I typed this my brain was playing mental videos of Richie's finer moments and the two that jumped to the forefront were from the early years and both were vocal moments. But when he sang the verse on Drift Away ( sorry, not sure which show) and Blood on Blood (Santiago '90 maybe) I got chills. The depth of emotion is just beyond comprehension. Unreal, if you will. I know you guys were talking guitar, but as I said it's the combination of better than average skill at almost everything - lead vocals, harmonies, lead guitar, accompanying, songwriting, - coupled with the emotion and, idk, pure enjoyment of music that makes him a standout for me.

The second comment (much shorter, which I'm sure you will appreciate) is that when you talk about how much he's improved since Valentine's Day, you do realize that we're still in February for a couple more hours, at least where I am. That's just two weeks ago. Pretty significant improvement for such a short time.

I'm looking forward to much more from Mr. Bluesman! :)

Ding!

Ding! Ding! Ding!! :) :) :)

One more and I'll stop spamming -at least for tonight.:)

I just think this proves that like beauty it's all in the eye of the beholder. I LIKE 'Willing to Try'. It's actually one of my favorite songs. ( But then, I liked MMMM-Bop! :roll:)

What's wrong with the lyrics? They may not be the poetic answer to War and Peace, but why do you think they're bad? That's not meant to be argumentative. I'm really curious. What constitutes a "great" lyric? And on the same subject why does it have to be heavy metal to be rock? Pop is just as much a part of the rock genre, IMO, as hard rock is, isn't it? Or am I missing something?

Seriously, just curious...

I'm not saying those are bad lyrics, that's not really what I'm getting at. I love a good pop song and I'm more saying people are casting stones at Jon for being the big reason the band has become poppy and it's Richie being held back from truly bringing the band to a rocking place. But those lyrics are just as generic as most things from the post 2000 Bon Jovi output.

Pop isn't necessarily part of the rock genre but the band was rock/pop for years and it turned the other way around. It's important to remember Richie was a big part of songs that just relied on cliches and easy rhymes just as Jon is.

Just for the record and out of topic, mmm-bop has some very decent lyrics (aside from the chorus) and is a very good pop song! That's it, carry on now....