[Supersonic]

Aloha !

In light of the other topic I decided to start this one right away. People have asked me before by PM what the story is behind It's My Life and Max Martin, so here it goes. It's a lot of text, I know, but this place has been dead for some time now so hopefully the few people that have stayed will enjoy the read.

There's a huge story behind Crush and finishing the band that no one's ever told, but I'll save it for another time. After showing what Jon and Richie had written for Sex Sells the record company wasn't impressed though. There was no hit among the songs Richie and Jon had written and once again Desmond was called, but it wasn't enough. Their river had run dry (huh huh). How about this guy Max Martin? Their colaboration with Mark Hudson had certainly worked.

Max had written It's My Life long before Jon and Richie knew they were going to be involved in the song. It's not just the chord progressions, it's everything about the song that just screams Max Martin. Listen to the Backstreet Boys' Larger Than Life and you'll find out why. The pumping verses, the way the backing vocals blend in with the lead vocal, the pronunciation of the words It's My Life, it's all Max Martin. Back when the song just had been released Jon was often asked about Max's involvement and they copied the same story time after time. "Oh he just happened to be in the room, he didn't write anything but we have this rule that who's with us in the room has co-written the song". A load of bollocks really, but that's really what Jons answered.

Later, Jon gave in and said Max put the samples in the song, but every professional songwriter who has worked with Andreas Carlsson, Max Martin and the likes knows the song was written by Max himself. Sure, Jon changed some lyrics here and there. "Let's put Tommy and Gina in it", Richie got his talkbox and there was your hit song. The story of IML2003 being the original demo version? Bullshit. The demo is Jon singing along to the backing track filled with samples and some guitar work by Richie.

When the "colaboration" with Max Martin had worked out, Jon suddenly had a lot of interest in working with Andreas Carlsson, Mark Hudson, Marti Fredriksen. I'm not saying he never wrote any of the stuff they supposedly came up with together but it's no secret their input might've been bigger than what Jon would like you to think. Try however to make an album with the songs of the box set that belong to the Sex Sells demo's without One Wild Night or It's My Life. There's no song among them that even remotely sounds like a hit song.

There's been talk about Jon and Richie having ghost writers writing some of their stuff ever since they made it big in the eighties. Back in those days people used to send in their music hoping one of them could sign them up to a record lable. The talk was that both of them listened to it, nicked the great stuff and put in it their own songs. Half of I'll Be There For You was supposed to have been created that way. Michael Jackson has been sued several times for having done the same thing, yet he was known by producers for throwing away every tape he received so he'd never be able to get sued. And to this day everyone who's sued him has lost their case.

There's more examples though where to this day Jon claims to have written the song by himself while the supposedly ghost writers or even the writers themself have come out with the fact that Jon didn't write it, no matter how much he tries to convince you otherwise. I am aware of only 2 others, but I'm quite sure there are more considering the amount of songs there are that have been co-written by someone not part of the band. It's not always Jon who starts the song, it's not always the both of them. Sometimes the co-writer comes up with a song and Jon changes it here and there. There are some Billy Falcon songs that have been written that way.

Ugly
Ugly was written by Eric Bazillian as U.G.L.Y., then finished by Jon. What's remarkable though is that at the time Eric wrote the song he added the story how he wrote it for his wife who was pregnant. When Jon was asked where he got the inspiration for Ugly he said it was, and I kid you not, Dorothea, who was pregnant. Eric hasn't been exactly positive about his experience with Jon and how Jon claims he wrote that stuff and has called Jon a liar once in an interview. Needless to say, unless they made up, the two of them are no longer friends.

All About Lovin' You
Jon did co-write some stuff for Bounce. Hook Me Up was written on a piano as I have been told, but All About Lovin' You was written by Andreas Carlsson for LeAnn Rhimes. LeAnn didn't want it and the record company pushed it down the bands throat. Jon didn't want it either, then changed some words to it with Richie and suddenly the band had written a ballad for the Bounce record. Back when Bounce was in pre-production both Jon and Richie had admitted not having written a single ballad for the album, and none of the released demo's indicate that the band were even remotely thinking of a song sounding like All About Lovin' You. When asked for the inspiration to this song, Jon once again referred to Dorothea and people ate it up.

Now these are the 3 songs of which I am fully convinced neither Jon or Richie had any input in apart from the words here and there. There is some sort of pact among songwriters not to talk about who wrote what unless both writers don't mind, hence those stories not coming out. If you'd rather believe Jon wrote everything he put his name on that's fine. Realize however there's a creative process that goes into songwriting, and it's no secret that anything that sounds remotely different from what the band has done before usually has a co-writer attached to it.

I am fully aware of people wanting to know the source to my story, but I can not reveal this due to it being someone who spoke to a co-writer off the record, or someone else in the business. I'm not sure the source would have a problem with me outing him, so I'd rather stick to letting them be anonymous. Realize however that over time you build up connections. I know I have been praised for my knowledge about the band but the knowledge comes from somewhere. Some have connections to get front row tickets, others hear about the creative processes behind the albums. Over time I've learned that the people behind the scenes are lot more interesting than the ones who seek publicity (Jon's brother anyone?) Considering how I don't give a shit about the front row, you can figure out to what category I belong to.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

[It's my faith]

Great story Sebastiaan! Thank you for the info!

I was thinking about LOAP and this (as-called) demo.

Desmond Child - Livin' On A Prayer (Rare Demo...

Could it be something like IML? I mean, a demo created by Des that Jon took and change it here and there, so here is your hit! I think that Jon officially says that Des wrote only the pre-chorus, but I'm not sure...

[Supersonic]

Aloha !

Originally Posted by It's my faith

Great story Sebastiaan! Thank you for the info!

I was thinking about LOAP and this (as-called) demo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liSc1FMnjB8

Could it be something like IML? I mean, a demo created by Des that Jon took and change it here and there, so here is your hit! I think that Jon officially says that Des wrote only the pre-chorus, but I'm not sure...

If this demo is older than 1985 I think it's safe to say Jon and Richie didn't write Livin' On A Prayer either. It'd also explain why Jon didn't want Prayer on the album: It wasn't written by them, and Desmond was brought in the same way Max Martin was brought in back in 1999.

It's remarkable how Jon has often claimed Desmond wrote pre-chorusses, he's used the same excuse for Bad Medicine and Keep The Faith. "The rest was all them", according to Jon.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

[Rdkopper]

Good write-up but you are not telling us anything completely new.

I do need sources in order to believe this 100%. The number one hole in your story is you stating that Jon and Richie wrote Sex Sells but this was supposed to be Jon's 3rd solo so Jon would be the songwriter, not Richie.

Jon Co-writes with a ton of people, it's no secrete and I'm sure percentages vary. He might contribute 10% on some and 90% on others.

In the late 90s, the music scene changed so much that Jon and Bon Jovi were becoming lost. They still had mega talent just didn't know which direction to go in. I think These Days and DA are brilliant but it wasn't matching the current music scene in America.

In 2000, Alternative music was out and The Boy Bands, Ricky Martin, etc were becoming it. The Record Co saw this as an opportunity for a Bon Jovi comeback. They fit right in with that pretty boy image. The Record Co / Max Martin threw them a song. Jon tweaked it. "My Heart Is Like An Open Highway, And Please Don't Ever Break it, I'll Cry" went to "My Heart Is Like An Open Highway, And Frankie Said I Did It, My Way"..... Richie didn't like it, he was wrong etc etc. Same with Tommy and Gina.

This is all old news.

As far as AALY, the Bounce record was just weird. I think this is second to 7800 where Jon had limited control. That's why no song were on the GHs. So your AALY story could be true. This happens all the time in the music business.

Bon Jovi are not the most perfect song writers but they are very talented song writers. They have given or thrown away much more then they have taken in. And the ones they have taken in, they tried making their own as much as the record company allowed them to.

At the end of the day, it's a business and the record company owns them. They could write the most perfect album and if the record company says no, use this Max Martin song instead, then that's what they do.

IMO, Bon Jovi loses no credibility with me for situations that are out of their control especially when it come to record company decisions.

Jon just threw a song to the Beach Boys, I doubt that started with Max Martin first. Bottom line, Bon Jovi are more then capable but there are just some thing out of their control. You can tell when Jon speaks, he has an extensive vocabulary. He is definitely a talented guy

[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by Rdkopper

Good write-up but you are not telling us anything completely new.

I do need sources in order to believe this 100%. The number one hole in your story is you stating that Jon and Richie wrote Sex Sells but this was supposed to be Jon's 3rd solo so Jon would be the songwriter, not Richie.

Jon Co-writes with a ton of people, it's no secrete and I'm sure percentages vary. He might contribute 10% on some and 90% on others.

In the late 90s, the music scene changed so much that Jon and Bon Jovi were becoming lost. They still had mega talent just didn't know which direction to go in. I think These Days and DA are brilliant but it wasn't matching the current music scene in America.

In 2000, Alternative music was out and The Boy Bands, Ricky Martin, etc were becoming it. The Record Co saw this as an opportunity for a Bon Jovi comeback. They fit right in with that pretty boy image. The Record Co / Max Martin threw them a song. Jon tweaked it. "My Heart Is Like An Open Highway, And Please Don't Ever Break it, I'll Cry" went to "My Heart Is Like An Open Highway, And Frankie Said I Did It, My Way"..... Richie didn't like it, he was wrong etc etc. Same with Tommy and Gina.

This is all old news.

As far as AALY, the Bounce record was just weird. I think this is second to 7800 where Jon had limited control. That's why no song were on the GHs. So your AALY story could be true. This happens all the time in the music business.

Bon Jovi are not the most perfect song writers but they are very talented song writers. They have given or thrown away much more then they have taken in. And the ones they have taken in, they tried making their own as much as the record company allowed them to.

At the end of the day, it's a business and the record company owns them. They could write the most perfect album and if the record company says no, use this Max Martin song instead, then that's what they do.

IMO, Bon Jovi loses no credibility with me for situations that are out of their control especially when it come to record company decisions.

Jon just threw a song to the Beach Boys, I doubt that started with Max Martin first. Bottom line, Bon Jovi are more then capable but there are just some thing out of their control. You can tell when Jon speaks, he has an extensive vocabulary. He is definitely a talented guy

Sex Sells was also going to be the title of the band's album before it was One Wild Night, then Crush. Also those IML lyrics that were changed, I missed that, were those originally the original lyrics?

There's a lot of good hard facts in Seb's post but it's far too reliant on hearsay. I assume the bit about I'll be there for you is about Joel Ellis? (http://www.sleazeroxx.com/news08/0810bon.shtml) He never came through with a sample or proof. Could it be true? Yah, but it's not enough to include it in this debate. AALY, I go back and forth on. The chorus chord progression is so much like Never Say Goodbye and the whole thing is so similar to Thank you for Loving me. But the fact that it was rarely done live, even when it was the single, makes you think there's probably some truth in it.

When did Jon and Richie say they didn't write any ballads for Bounce in the pre-production stage? It was such a ballad-heavy album, I don't know if I buy that.

[Rdkopper]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

Sex Sells was also going to be the title of the band's album before it was One Wild Night, then Crush. Also those IML lyrics that were changed, I missed that, were those originally the original lyrics?

There's a lot of good hard facts in Seb's post but it's far too reliant on hearsay. I assume the bit about I'll be there for you is about Joel Ellis? (http://www.sleazeroxx.com/news08/0810bon.shtml) He never came through with a sample or proof. Could it be true? Yah, but it's not enough to include it in this debate. AALY, I go back and forth on. The chorus chord progression is so much like Never Say Goodbye and the whole thing is so similar to Thank you for Loving me. But the fact that it was rarely done live, even when it was the single, makes you think there's probably some truth in it.

When did Jon and Richie say they didn't write any ballads for Bounce in the pre-production stage? It was such a ballad-heavy album, I don't know if I buy that.

No, I made the IML lyrics up to show my interpretation as to what happened. But I do think the Frankie part is an important piece to the song. That's where the chorus pops. I have a feeling the song would have been a lot more girlie if Jon didn't make those changes.

I thought SS was supposed to be solo. It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant to the rest of my reply. I still think there is a credibility issue here.

[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by Rdkopper

No, I made the IML lyrics up to show my interpretation as to what happened. But I do think the Frankie part is an important piece to the song. That's where the chorus pops. I have a feeling the song would have been a lot more girlie if Jon didn't make those changes.

I thought SS was supposed to be solo. It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant to the rest of my reply. I still think there is a credibility issue here.

It started as a solo album, became a band album. I get your point though.

[jovi 94]

we know of many songs jon wrote on his own so are we trying to question his ability? - he wrote enough songs to convince me he is an amazing song writer, maybe not all the time for thirty years, but who is?

[BonJovi100]

Ok. We have some stories about their songs. Maybe they are near truth maybe not. Axl Rose and Slash can tell us different story about something and you don't know who tell you truth ( they say about the same thing).

I think that MMartin gave demo of IML for BJ and they changed lyrics, some melody, add instruments, talk-box, jons sing it... but I don't know if it's 100% truth.

I know one thing. I heard thousands of IML cover and NOBODy play it half good as Bon Jovi. Probably I will never heard better version of this song. And I don't care if BJ do 90% or 10% of that song. It's just F***n brilliant as a BJ song and thats all what I really care.

[Supersonic]

Aloha !

Originally Posted by Rdkopper

Good write-up but you are not telling us anything completely new.

I do need sources in order to believe this 100%. The number one hole in your story is you stating that Jon and Richie wrote Sex Sells but this was supposed to be Jon's 3rd solo so Jon would be the songwriter, not Richie.

That's not a hole in the story at all. Like Captain_jovi says, Sex Sells was supposed to be Jon's solo record in 1998. That changed when Jon and Richie started writing in late 1998, early 1999.

Originally Posted by Rdkopper

Jon Co-writes with a ton of people, it's no secrete and I'm sure percentages vary. He might contribute 10% on some and 90% on others.

Yeah, and by saying this you're pretty much explaining It's My Life. It'd be 90% Max Martin and then 10% Jon by tweaking the lyrics here and there and Richie adding some breaks in the song.

Originally Posted by Rdkopper

In the late 90s, the music scene changed so much that Jon and Bon Jovi were becoming lost. They still had mega talent just didn't know which direction to go in. I think These Days and DA are brilliant but it wasn't matching the current music scene in America.

In 2000, Alternative music was out and The Boy Bands, Ricky Martin, etc were becoming it. The Record Co saw this as an opportunity for a Bon Jovi comeback. They fit right in with that pretty boy image. The Record Co / Max Martin threw them a song. Jon tweaked it. "My Heart Is Like An Open Highway, And Please Don't Ever Break it, I'll Cry" went to "My Heart Is Like An Open Highway, And Frankie Said I Did It, My Way"..... Richie didn't like it, he was wrong etc etc. Same with Tommy and Gina.

This is all old news.

Again, you're telling the same story I just told you, yet you refuse to believe me?

Originally Posted by Rdkopper

As far as AALY, the Bounce record was just weird. I think this is second to 7800 where Jon had limited control. That's why no song were on the GHs. So your AALY story could be true. This happens all the time in the music business.

Really, how would you know? Again, you're making some statement saying it happens more in the music business yet considering the amount of artists I follow as much as I follow Bon Jovi I'm yet to find one that has put a song on an album they didn't write yet added their co-writingship to. Aerosmith didn't add Joe Perry's name to I Don't Want To Miss A Thing either, despite him tweaking the song here and there. They felt it was a Diane Warren song, but Jon lives by the idea of not putting anything out he didn't write so he just had to add their names to it. But go on, tell me about a few other examples, considering how it happens so often in the music industry. Back up your statements with some examples, please.

Originally Posted by Rdkopper

Bon Jovi are not the most perfect song writers but they are very talented song writers. They have given or thrown away much more then they have taken in. And the ones they have taken in, they tried making their own as much as the record company allowed them to.

I never said they're not talented songwriters. They've got a good ear as to what works for their audience, and it's been the co-writers of the past 10 years and the sound they're going for that have pretty much ruined the last 10 years on a creative level for me. If they'd use producers that would push them in the right direction creatively as opposed to the right commercial direction we'd be having albums that would sound a lot more like the classic Bon Jovi records of the eighties and nineties than the dire crap they've released the past 10 years. And that's got nothing to do with going with the times.

[QUOTE=Rdkopper;1084849]At the end of the day, it's a business and the record company owns them. They could write the most perfect album and if the record company says no, use this Max Martin song instead, then that's what they do.

IMO, Bon Jovi loses no credibility with me for situations that are out of their control especially when it come to record company decisions.

You're giving the record company way too much credit. Bon Jovi are not just some band that just started out. If Jon would like to release a live record tomorrow he'd be able to do so. Whether the record company would back it up with as much promo as they did for the HAND record is another thing, and that's probably why Jon lets the record companies have so much influence. He wants his music out there, and if it means selling out by including a song he didn't write, so be it.

Originally Posted by Rdkopper

Jon just threw a song to the Beach Boys, I doubt that started with Max Martin first. Bottom line, Bon Jovi are more then capable but there are just some thing out of their control. You can tell when Jon speaks, he has an extensive vocabulary. He is definitely a talented guy

Jon didn't throw a song at the Beach Boys, he just changed a few things here and there. The song had already been written so that's a bad example. How one doesn't lose credibility when things are out of their control makes no sense either. There's no need to lie about the entire way several songs were written, no one would lose anything with it unless...Unless Jon enjoys pretending he wrote certain big hits. But it's flaunting with things you don't have. It's the same as claiming you sold out a venue when 25% of the tickets haven't been sold, another thing Jon's very good at. Jon's credibility is always on the line when he speaks, considering he often blows things up to make them sound bigger. (Back to their roots, changes in the set, sold out shows, creativity in the song arrangements). Why would his songwriting not be such a thing? Why would that be the exception?

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan