[semigoodlooking]

Originally Posted by Thinny

Between The Black Album and St Anger there was no one even close to them as far as metal bands go commercially.

As I said, that relationship with Metallica was built when they were not the biggest metal band in the world. It was the dynamic between him and them that came from where both parties were at that time. How much evidence is there that he pushed Bon Jovi in the same way during the KTF production? Genuine question. Equally, how much evidence is there that Shanks does not make suggestions, challenge decisions, tell them when something isn't good enough?

And even though Rock started off pushing Metallica, he increasingly became a yes man and like how we presume Shanks is with Jon now. Some Kind Of Monster Bob Rock is not the same as Metallica Bob Rock. Bob has said himself that part of the reason they stopped working together is because he became ineffective and too close to the band to make suggestions.

Originally Posted by Thinny

You're missing the point of the producers job. It is not his job to make decisons, the final say will always go to the band, as it should. His job is to make suggestions, challenge their decisions, tell them when something isn't good enough, and Bob was 100% still doing that at this point. Basically his job is to get the best out of them possible. Ok St. Anger was seriously bad, but I think the band are as much to blame for that, that's the sound they were going for, but they were happy for Bob to take the fall.

Metallica are very to blame for St Anger. Rock is on record saying that Lars Ulrich chose the drum sound when James Hetfield was not there and would not change his mind on that sound. I think I remember in the documentary Rock does say the album will feel complete when there are solos but of course that never happened.

I would prefer Bob Rock for Bon Jovi simply because I think he sounds better. But I reject the idea he is an auteur and he would challenge Jon. I also don't think he is "my way or nothing" and he would take Jon's money to be bossed around by him. We'll never know.

[Thinny]

Originally Posted by semigoodlooking

As I said, that relationship with Metallica was built when they were not the biggest metal band in the world. It was the dynamic between him and them that came from where both parties were at that time. How much evidence is there that he pushed Bon Jovi in the same way during the KTF production? Genuine question.

But basically that's a producers job. If the producer is not doing this, then he isn't a very good producer...
Watch some of the footage of Bob Ezrin in the studio with Deep Purple or Alice Cooper. Now THAT'S a producer!

Originally Posted by semigoodlooking

Equally, how much evidence is there that Shanks does not make suggestions, challenge decisions, tell them when something isn't good enough?

Fair point, but Shanks just doesn't seem like kind of guy to me. He's got a kushy job here, he's not gonna rock that boat. Of course I could be completely wrong.

Its a discussion though, I'm not stating anything as fact, it's all just my opinion at the end of the day. If we suddently have to provide evidence for everything we say there won't be many conversations happening here...

Originally Posted by semigoodlooking

And even though Rock started off pushing Metallica, he increasingly became a yes man and like how we presume Shanks is with Jon now. Some Kind Of Monster Bob Rock is not the same as Metallica Bob Rock.

I respectfully disagree. There were several scenes in Some Kind Of Monster where he was questioning their decisions and pushing them. Maybe not as much as the beginning but he was still challenging them and making them think outside of the box. They just generally didn't want to listen at that point. Not much Bob can do about that.

Originally Posted by semigoodlooking

Bob has said himself that part of the reason they stopped working together is because he became ineffective and too close to the band to make suggestions.

Of course he said that. But in my opinion the reason they stopped working together was because Metallica saw the bad feedback for St Anger and decided to put all of the blame on that on Bob.

[bonjovi_cro]

Great points here by everybody. I just want to add that, in my opinion, part of the problem of modern Jovi is that Shanks is not "only" a producer in traditional sense, he is also a songwriter, guitar player, arranger, starter or finisher of the songs, perhaps even shadow writer sometimes (remember not everything is credited and more often than not, not justly, case in point Dry County does not have Richie as co-writer if I'm not mistaken).

If Shanks was only a producer (it does still mean a lot of responsibility, its' not just mixing and mastering, but again depends from band to band, and album to album. Again, its not the same to be a producer of a young 25-year olds and a producer of a veteran legendary band), then we could have a discussion is he proper for the job, is he still hungry, is he past it, etc. But all of this comes after the fact that he became too valuable and comfortable for Jon. Ofc, bucket stops with Jon and he is the most responsible for drop in quality. But, I can hope that Jon somehow rediscovers his songwriting and performing talents that I grew in love with. I cannot theoretically harbor the same hope with Shanks, cause I was never a fan of him, but the band Bon Jovi. In conlusion, I don't think somebody else would necessarily "mix" it better, I just think change is due so that Jon is outside comfort zone and some novel perspective is introduced. And that is probably precisely why the change won't come

[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by bonjovi_cro

Great points here by everybody. I just want to add that, in my opinion, part of the problem of modern Jovi is that Shanks is not "only" a producer in traditional sense, he is also a songwriter, guitar player, arranger, starter or finisher of the songs, perhaps even shadow writer sometimes (remember not everything is credited and more often than not, not justly, case in point Dry County does not have Richie as co-writer if I'm not mistaken).

If Shanks was only a producer (it does still mean a lot of responsibility, its' not just mixing and mastering, but again depends from band to band, and album to album. Again, its not the same to be a producer of a young 25-year olds and a producer of a veteran legendary band), then we could have a discussion is he proper for the job, is he still hungry, is he past it, etc. But all of this comes after the fact that he became too valuable and comfortable for Jon. Ofc, bucket stops with Jon and he is the most responsible for drop in quality. But, I can hope that Jon somehow rediscovers his songwriting and performing talents that I grew in love with. I cannot theoretically harbor the same hope with Shanks, cause I was never a fan of him, but the band Bon Jovi. In conlusion, I don't think somebody else would necessarily "mix" it better, I just think change is due so that Jon is outside comfort zone and some novel perspective is introduced. And that is probably precisely why the change won't come

Right but Shanks doesn't mix OR master the albums. He for sure has a large role in crafting the songs he co-writes, yeah. Semigoodlooking brought up such a good point we often forget.....we don't know shit. We don't know what the recording process is like, we don't know how the band operates and what Shanks's role is or isn't. It's all based on notions and theories and us reacting to what we made up in our heads to fit the narrative. We just know the very small fractions of info we get from the band. I really hope the documentary blows this stuff wide open a little.

[bonjovi_cro]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

Right but Shanks doesn't mix OR master the albums. He for sure has a large role in crafting the songs he co-writes, yeah. Semigoodlooking brought up such a good point we often forget.....we don't know shit. We don't know what the recording process is like, we don't know how the band operates and what Shanks's role is or isn't. It's all based on notions and theories and us reacting to what we made up in our heads to fit the narrative. We just know the very small fractions of info we get from the band. I really hope the documentary blows this stuff wide open a little.

Yeah that's true. Though mastering is normally delegated far away, but mixing should still be his area of direct supervision. Of course, he will have dedicated mixing engineers (as well as recording engineers). Now, it's completely possible and doable to have different setups. One would be for SWW where Bruce Fairbairn was the producer and Bob Rock as engineer/mixed beneath him (but they were duo basically) and Jon then just as a talent who sings, plays guitar and mostly takes orders. And then modern context you are right, we simply don't know exactly. But it is apparent that Shanks is there to generally be both Fairbairn and Desmond Child all in one, with more vocal Jon about what he wants (and getting it).

[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by bonjovi_cro

Yeah that's true. Though mastering is normally delegated far away, but mixing should still be his area of direct supervision. Of course, he will have dedicated mixing engineers (as well as recording engineers). Now, it's completely possible and doable to have different setups. One would be for SWW where Bruce Fairbairn was the producer and Bob Rock as engineer/mixed beneath him (but they were duo basically) and Jon then just as a talent who sings, plays guitar and mostly takes orders. And then modern context you are right, we simply don't know exactly. But it is apparent that Shanks is there to generally be both Fairbairn and Desmond Child all in one, with more vocal Jon about what he wants (and getting it).

This is one of my favourite articles to glean info from about the making of WAN: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...what-about-now

Not only is it about the actual music and recording, it talks to the engineers and mixers who have no reason to lie and aren't on the band's payroll to dictate a message. I legit think a lot of people's problems with the 2005-onwards periods is made up in their heads. Some issues hold water but it's a lot of conspiricies.

-------------------------------------------

As the writing and recording of What About Now progressed, Shanks's focus shifted more and more from songwriter to producer. "You take the rough mixes with you, and are listening to them over and over again, and you make notes of what needs to be done to them, like maybe the second verse could be shorter, or maybe it needs a guitar solo in a certain place, or maybe the lyrics need some lines changed. Jon and Richie make their own notes, and by the time we get back together again, each of us will have a laundry list of suggestions for changes, and when we compare them it allows us to look at each song objectively. It's almost like we're A&R-ing the record! For me, personally, because I co-write some of the songs, the more distance I have from the songs the better, so I don't think of them any more as mine or not mine. My job is simply to make every song as great as it can be. They each become like my kids, and I want them represented in the best possible light so they can reach as many people as possible.”

[bonjovi_cro]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

This is one of my favourite articles to glean info from about the making of WAN: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...what-about-now

Not only is it about the actual music and recording, it talks to the engineers and mixers who have no reason to lie and aren't on the band's payroll to dictate a message. I legit think a lot of people's problems with the 2005-onwards periods is made up in their heads. Some issues hold water but it's a lot of conspiricies.

-------------------------------------------

As the writing and recording of What About Now progressed, Shanks's focus shifted more and more from songwriter to producer. "You take the rough mixes with you, and are listening to them over and over again, and you make notes of what needs to be done to them, like maybe the second verse could be shorter, or maybe it needs a guitar solo in a certain place, or maybe the lyrics need some lines changed. Jon and Richie make their own notes, and by the time we get back together again, each of us will have a laundry list of suggestions for changes, and when we compare them it allows us to look at each song objectively. It's almost like we're A&R-ing the record! For me, personally, because I co-write some of the songs, the more distance I have from the songs the better, so I don't think of them any more as mine or not mine. My job is simply to make every song as great as it can be. They each become like my kids, and I want them represented in the best possible light so they can reach as many people as possible.”

Well the quotes part is exactly the main problem. He became equal partners (and later part of the band even) in songwriting and crafting songs. So producing is who, his assistants? WAN is terrible in production choices, quality of production, not so much mixing and technical aspects, but choosing where to pinpoint a direction of song. And that is his job, no matter how much he delegates. Richie was absent from that record mostly, Tico replaced by drum machines and Jon in a hurry to buy a football team. I would say that record mostly sums up Shanks as the main guy: it's all over the place. few good songs (Left of me, I'm with you, Water) destroyed by awful choices and style of production. With House in 2016 and 2020 albums its rather different

Also, first sentence in quoted part is wrongly attributing to described notions as "producing". He's not talking about producing, but about arranging and crafting a final structure of the song. He is still a "songwriter" in that mode.

[tobi is an animal]

what kind of notes did each one have for The Fighter?

jon has nothing left in the tank and shanks isn't going anywhere end of story.

[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by bonjovi_cro

Well the quotes part is exactly the main problem. He became equal partners (and later part of the band even) in songwriting and crafting songs. So producing is who, his assistants? WAN is terrible in production choices, quality of production, not so much mixing and technical aspects, but choosing where to pinpoint a direction of song. And that is his job, no matter how much he delegates. Richie was absent from that record mostly, Tico replaced by drum machines and Jon in a hurry to buy a football team. I would say that record mostly sums up Shanks as the main guy: it's all over the place. few good songs (Left of me, I'm with you, Water) destroyed by awful choices and style of production. With House in 2016 and 2020 albums its rather different

Also, first sentence in quoted part is wrongly attributing to described notions as "producing". He's not talking about producing, but about arranging and crafting a final structure of the song. He is still a "songwriter" in that mode.

Tico replaced by drum machines? Tico played the parts live then recorded drum loops that were overlayed on top, literally how It's My Life Was made.

See below:

"Hugh McDonald and Tico Torres always tracked the bass and drums playing live together, apart from in a couple of instances when we recorded Tico's drums separately."

"It was written on an acoustic guitar, but they wanted lots of vocals on the track, and big drums. So a lot of work went into doing the drums for this song, because we wanted them to sound huge. As a result, we used Jon's studio a lot to record this song. We got Tico to play individual hits on the drums, instead of him playing a drum kit, and recorded these sounds and programmed drum parts using them. He then played live drums to these beats that had used his own sounds as samples. In addition, I added samples of a dance kick and a big, attack-y snare, to make them pop out more. Jon also sang his vocals at his studio.”

"Usually the drum section is simpler and more compact, as in 'I'm With You', which has 21 drum tracks and six loop tracks, done by John. I did add kick and snare samples on many songs, using Sound Replacer, which are marked 'SRMM' in the Edit window waveforms."

"It's a modern rock album, with a very up-front, compressed sound, which is based on a mixture of played and programmed elements, like synth basses and drum loops. But the core of it is that organic Bon Jovi feel of real people playing. "

My forever arching point is a wealth of information negating a threory and STILL saying "well it's Jon and Friends and Tico was replaced by a drum machine"

Nah, it's an album with less Richie and it wasn't very good.

[bonjovi_cro]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

Tico replaced by drum machines? Tico played the parts live then recorded drum loops that were overlayed on top, literally how It's My Life Was made.

See below:

"Hugh McDonald and Tico Torres always tracked the bass and drums playing live together, apart from in a couple of instances when we recorded Tico's drums separately."

"It was written on an acoustic guitar, but they wanted lots of vocals on the track, and big drums. So a lot of work went into doing the drums for this song, because we wanted them to sound huge. As a result, we used Jon's studio a lot to record this song. We got Tico to play individual hits on the drums, instead of him playing a drum kit, and recorded these sounds and programmed drum parts using them. He then played live drums to these beats that had used his own sounds as samples. In addition, I added samples of a dance kick and a big, attack-y snare, to make them pop out more. Jon also sang his vocals at his studio.”

"Usually the drum section is simpler and more compact, as in 'I'm With You', which has 21 drum tracks and six loop tracks, done by John. I did add kick and snare samples on many songs, using Sound Replacer, which are marked 'SRMM' in the Edit window waveforms."

"It's a modern rock album, with a very up-front, compressed sound, which is based on a mixture of played and programmed elements, like synth basses and drum loops. But the core of it is that organic Bon Jovi feel of real people playing. "

My forever arching point is a wealth of information negating a threory and STILL saying "well it's Jon and Friends and Tico was replaced by a drum machine"

Nah, it's an album with less Richie and it wasn't very good.

Sorry but it's not a theory and it's not explicitly meant as Tico is not on a final recording, but no way Tico was present while that album was made and crafted. And this is not a new story, it's like that since Crush at least, with varying degrees. They even bragged that for House album they (finally) got together to craft some songs (again, in minority). Ofc Tico in the end recorded, but that transcipt proves that much of the sampled stuff still found a way to a record. Admittedly, in 2013 samples were not good enough. Today? It's harder to find a popular metal band or a pop artist for that fact that records their own drummer (just as an example). So yes, I stand by what I said, that record is half assed Jon with half assed demos given to Shanks to "produce", read finish them, arrange them and finally record them with a band in the least timeframe possible. His choices along the way define that album as the worst produced and arranged album of Jovi's discography